A Niedermörmter type Helmet with Newstead Segmental Armour

[Crispvs]

I think it must be Aolus, king of the winds. I note that the tail of my crest is also uncharacteristically mobile in the picture.

Crispvs

[Peroni]

Btw, who is lifting Gaius's skirt there in the picture?

HAS to be another legionary! Although it cannot be our Crispvs, as it looks like he already has his hands full with the second sword!!!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No, they are both in my hands! :wink:

I was looking for signs of wind, but missed your crest! :lol:

I was looking at our fellow legionaries tunic,and it looked to be still!
there were so many people tugging the back of my tunic down that weekend, I thought it was that again!!! :lol: :roll:

Definately need to make some belt clips to stop my belt falling off my seg!! :?

[Fabius Liberalis]

RMRS members:

Well I think we could at least be greatfull that despite living in Scotland Magivs didn't adopt the traditional Scots method of kilt wearing with his tunica in these windy conditions. Just consider the effect an injudiciously directed blast by Aolus could have had on an already terrified and demoralised Brittunculi !!!

Was there any RAT member who didn't attend this event??? Seriously I had a great time and advice from those I met. I thought I would post a couple of photos of the day for RAT members who were not there to give them a flavour of this Corbridge event.

[Fabius Liberalis]

Hi Martin

I suppose I better bring this post back on topic after the discussions on Magivs's flying tunica.

The shoes will be based on this example from the Newstead finds. The craftsman who is making the pugio and the Newstead Gladius for me is also making the boots.

He brought the unfinished pair along to the Corbridge event for me to check for fit. They look to me to be a good interpretation of the original but I forgot to photograph them at the time.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Excellent shots Fabius 8) The Calvary were pretty good too! The white horse was a real poser!!! The little brown was all game, but looked like she would rather be carrying someone with less armor!! Poor little thing. Still, was a good display!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Fabius , where are the Newstead finds on display? Edinburgh or London?

[Fabius Liberalis]

Fabius , where are the Newstead finds on display? Edinburgh or London?

They are in the Museum of Scotland Edinbrgh and well worth a visit. Here is a photo of the pieces that are of interest to me at the moment - the lorica fragments and the gladius blade.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

They aren't showing up!

[Fabius Liberalis]

They aren't showing up!

I am using a new ISP to host the images and if the problem continues I will find another. It seems OK at the moment.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Can see it now! :? ) P

[scott]

Hello Fabius,

I'm also trying to put together a 2nd Century impression at present. I'd be interested in sharing ideas with you or anybody else who would care to add input.

Good look and hope to hear from you soon.

Scott Goring.

[Crispvs]

Scott,

When you say 'a second century impression', which part of the second century (I assume you mean the 2nd century AD) do you mean? You need to be a bit more specific than just choosing the whole century.
Like every army before and since, the Roman army was continually changing little by little and developing over time. In the same way that a soldier serving under Tiberius in Panonia would not have looked the same as a soldier serving seventy years later with Agricola in Britain, a soldier of the early second century under Trajan would not have looked at a soldier eighty years later serving under Septimius Severus or Clodius Albinus. If you limit yourself to a twenty five year period (ie the first, second, third or fourth quarters of the century) we can be a lot more specific about what you might need or might be permitted to have in order to give a fairly accurate picture of a soldier of the particular part of the second century you are interested in.

Helmets are a good thing to use as an example of what I mean. For the opening of the second century you would be likely to see a lot of imperial series helmets. As Trajan's Dacian campaigns got under way a lot of helmets would be seen with added cross bars. By the second quarter of the second century you would expect to see helments like the Hebron and Thielenhofen helmets, where crossed re-enforcements are an integral part of the design and lunar shapes are sometimes added in the spaces between the bars. Cheek guards have grown a bit longer and neck guards are quite deep. By the time of Marcus Aurelius in the third quarter of the century, the crossed re-inforcements have developed from their original round section to vertical flat section and are slotted to fit into each other at the crossing point. In all likelihood the occipital regions of these helmets were becoming deeper. By the time of Severus' war with Albinus in the 190s, we would probably be seeing helments like the Niedermoemter and Guttmann mouse and loaf helmets.

In the same way that helmets developed and changed accross the century, so did belts, sword types, scabbards, footwear and clothing.

Therefore, pick your preferred quarter century and I am sure we will all try to advise accordingly.


Fabius,

For the use of pugiones in the second century I remain unconvinced that daggers were in use by soldiers thoughout the century, but it seems correct to concede that they may have been re-introduced during the Antonine period in their later form. The grip plate from Barr Hill does not necessarily date to the middle of the century, as it would in all likelihood have been deposited in the well at the time the fort was demolished (in the 180s?). It need not have been particularly old when it was deposited, just broken. I do not know the dating of the Buciumi find at this stage unfortunately.
I suppose therefore that it would be acceptable to have a pugio attached to a suitably late second century belt (Vtere Felix seems like a suitable option), as long as it was the later type of dagger (the Kunzing type for want of a better term). The things you should still avoid are the mid first century belt types most people associate with Roman soldiers, caligae (which had long since been superceded by the kind of enclosed boots which can be seen in some profusion at Vindolanda) and a gladius (superceded by the spatha). You should also be looking at the broad baldrick with the large eagle (or similar) phalera for your sword suspension. This method was certainly in use by the 190s and seems to have remained popular for the next sixty years or so.

Crispvs

[Fabius Liberalis]

Scott,

You are certainly in the right forum for advice. I can only echo Crispvs's comments if you can let us know what helmet/armour preference you have.

Crispvs,

Thanks for the follow up.

I am certainly coming round to your way of thinking at least in representing the very last period my Newstead would have been used.

On the basis of the discussions in this post I will try to develop 2 possible presentations that I can use with my Newstead armour an earlier mid 2nd C presentation using my Hebron Italic G helmet with gladius/pugio and a later end of 2nd C one using my Italic H helmet. I have had a look at page 160 in the 2nd edition of Roman Military Equipment showing the Vtere Felix Belt/Scabbard you mentioned and I think it would certainly be an interesting combination to use with the Newstead and no pugio. I didn't think I could use it as its described as 3rd C but if you think its appropriate I certainly would consider it.

[Hugh Fuller]

In your discussion of whether the pugio continued in use through the 2nd Century, I have read that as well and have this thought on the subject. At one point, American troops frequently carried large knives int combat but then generally stopped doing so. They began to do so again during the jungle fighting in WWII but not elsewhere as I understand it. There were no particular rules on the subject, it was just a matter of taste and fashion. I suspect that this may play a larger factor in otherwise unexplainable military trends than we tend to want to believe. THe military can be just as fashion-oriented as any other group.