Could the Spartans have been Jews?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Black Athena was a very interesting book, but I am ashamed to say I never finished reading it..... :oops:

[Robert Vermaat]

There was a counter-study to it some years ago.

[PMBardunias]

and yes, it may mean I could have a little bit of Spartan heritage afterall.

Genetically Greeks and Jews are quite close. A large percentage of the Jewish population carry a Y-chromosomal marker, passed from father to son only, in a group called J2. The "J" i think originally stood for Jew in fact, cause that's where they were first found. Jews have a second type called "J1" in almost equal proportion. J1 is a marker tied to arab populations and presumably ancient southern semetic groups.

Now Greeks have something like 1/4 of their Y markers in the J2 group, some types of J2 are considered "Greek markers", though almost no J1. What has occurred is that both many Jews and many greeks share a common ancestry with the ancient peoples of Anatolia and the caucuses who are loaded with J2. Groups like Assyrians, Hurrians, Hittites, Luwians, probably northern semites like phoenecians as well, all had a substantial J2 component even though culturally and linguistically they differed.

Whether this marker was associated most closely with the spread of Indo-european cultures is debated, but it is a very important indicator of the relationship between all of these early peoples that gets clouded linguistically.

Jews and Greeks are much closer to each other for instance than Greeks are to people from England who share the same language family.

[Aryaman2]

and yes, it may mean I could have a little bit of Spartan heritage afterall.

Genetically Greeks and Jews are quite close. A large percentage of the Jewish population carry a Y-chromosomal marker, passed from father to son only, in a group called J2. The "J" i think originally stood for Jew in fact, cause that's where they were first found. Jews have a second type called "J1" in almost equal proportion. J1 is a marker tied to arab populations and presumably ancient southern semetic groups.

Now Greeks have something like 1/4 of their Y markers in the J2 group, some types of J2 are considered "Greek markers", though almost no J1. What has occurred is that both many Jews and many greeks share a common ancestry with the ancient peoples of Anatolia and the caucuses who are loaded with J2. Groups like Assyrians, Hurrians, Hittites, Luwians, probably northern semites like phoenecians as well, all had a substantial J2 component even though culturally and linguistically they differed.

Whether this marker was associated most closely with the spread of Indo-european cultures is debated, but it is a very important indicator of the relationship between all of these early peoples that gets clouded linguistically.

Jews and Greeks are much closer to each other for instance than Greeks are to people from England who share the same language family.

J2 is also present in Northern India, but absent in Dravidian and Tribal (no caste) populations. It could be a marker for Indoeuropean Aryans, because the generally asociated R1a has proved to be of prehistoric origen in India.
BTW J does not stand for Jew, it is simply a filogenetic classification.

[Macedonian]

and yes, it may mean I could have a little bit of Spartan heritage afterall.

Genetically Greeks and Jews are quite close. A large percentage of the Jewish population carry a Y-chromosomal marker, passed from father to son only, in a group called J2. The "J" i think originally stood for Jew in fact, cause that's where they were first found. Jews have a second type called "J1" in almost equal proportion. J1 is a marker tied to arab populations and presumably ancient southern semetic groups.

Now Greeks have something like 1/4 of their Y markers in the J2 group, some types of J2 are considered "Greek markers", though almost no J1. What has occurred is that both many Jews and many greeks share a common ancestry with the ancient peoples of Anatolia and the caucuses who are loaded with J2. Groups like Assyrians, Hurrians, Hittites, Luwians, probably northern semites like phoenecians as well, all had a substantial J2 component even though culturally and linguistically they differed.

Whether this marker was associated most closely with the spread of Indo-european cultures is debated, but it is a very important indicator of the relationship between all of these early peoples that gets clouded linguistically.

Jews and Greeks are much closer to each other for instance than Greeks are to people from England who share the same language family.

What am I going to read or hear next that we are closely related to the Japanese?

[PMBardunias]

What am I going to read or hear next that we are closely related to the Japanese?

That depends on what you mean by close. Norhtern asians, which includes most Japanese, are closer to greeks (westerners in general) than they are to southern Asians or Africans. So yes, you are closer to a Japanese person than more than perhaps half the people on earth.

There is a new paper out on Greek Y chromosomal DNA by King, purportingly linking types to ancient migrations if anyone is interested.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That sounds very interesting Paul, any chance of a copy? :wink: :wink:

[PMBardunias]

Send me an email and I'll send a copy of the paper.

[Senovara]

hmm ... interesting theories in this thread.

Hiya Macedonian, please put your real name in your signature - it's a forum rule. Thanks.

[Hoplitesmores]

In 1st Machabees, Chpt 12, Verse 20; Arius King of the Spartans writes back to Onias the High Priest of the Jews that "It is found in writing concerning the Spartans and the Jews, that they are brethren and that they are of the same stock of Abraham."

Does anyone know of any ancient Greek sources that agree with the Biblical text?

There is no source that "agrees" with this.

[PMBardunias]

I've spoken to a number of historians over the years, both Greek and Jewish, and all agree that the passage is fake in the sense that there is no tie to a biblical Abraham.

It may well be authentic in that is was faithfully copied from true correspondence. What if a Spartan did what so many Greeks did in confronting other religions and simply equated Abraham the Law giver with Lycurgus the law giver, or equated him with Heracles? Or perhaps the reverse, the jewish high priest equated Heracles with Abraham. This type of equations were common.

[Hoplitesmores]

Iit was a "blessing of their beards" through associating themselves in the text with famous warriors like the Spartans.

[PMBardunias]

Iit was a "blessing of their beards" through associating themselves in the text with famous warriors like the Spartans.

This was pretty common in the Hellenistic period. I can't recall, but you may know the names of a number of Anatolian cities that claimed Spartan ancestry during this period. Even the Romans did through the Sabines- and they did worship Castor and Pollux...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Seems a common thread throughout the (olden)ages, equating gods and claiming brotherhood to strengthen ties and trade links/treaties.... :?:

[Idomeneas]

well Spartans couldnt be Jews. They had terrible relations with money :lol: :lol: :lol: