Greek Bronze Greaves

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks. I can get brass i think in the size I need,I was checking about bronze.
The lines must be a bit difficult to draw,I imagine,given that you also have to calculate the curvature around the leg...Waiting to see how this "oddity" is going to work :wink:
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

I still have not seen a high quality pair of greaves on anyone from a side profile which I think would help A LOT. I did notice some things last night after 7 iterations of the template that I will probably end up doing 5 more times before it is just right.

1) When measuring the greaves I have seen from Manning and museum pictures, it seems that the greaves only cover about 2/3 of the calf. That leaves the upper part of the calf exposed on the back. It also means the curve from the knee to the portion of the greave that wraps the calf leaves a portion of the upper side of the calf also exposed. Is that right from your understanding too?

2) The greave only covers the front of the knee and lower thigh and leaves a portion of the front exposed a bit too. The greave, in essence, only wraps the full calf from just above the widest point about 2/3 up the calf down to the ankle. I am assuming that from measuring several pairs in pictures and by looking at how much length of the side profile is the 45 degree angle from the knee to the calf.

I think I was trying to cover way too much of the leg. If anyone disagrees with this, sound off. I will hopefully finish my right template tonight and post pics for comments.

[martijn.wijnhoven]

At this moment I am reading the book Archaiologia on Archaic Greek Body Armour by Eero Jarva. He refers to yet another book which might be of interest called Beinschienen (1991: Olympische Forschungen XXI, Berlin) by Emil Kunze and describes it as follows:

At the moment we have an excellent picture of Archaic Greek greaves in Emil Kunze’s Beinschienen, as the volume includes practically all the material discovered at Olympia and also lists most other finds.

Link to Amazon where the book can be found:
http://www.amazon.com/Beinschienen-Olym ... 212&sr=1-1

Best regards,

Martijn

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ah,I had heard Matt Amt speaking about this amazing book. Look at the price
Chris,careful not to cover too little of your leg. Look at those manning geaves worn. http://flickr.com/photos/7455207@N05/51 ... 260375199/
The knee is well protected all around except from the back. The cald is covered over the widest part,so the greave acan clip on the leg.
http://hoplitikon.com/MMFAT/2007/IMG_0025.jpg
http://hoplitikon.com/MMFAT/2007/IMG_0058.jpg
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to see. All the pics I have seen show them at angles that do not clearly show the back of the greave when worn.

I do notice that it does leave the side of the thigh exposed where it meets the knee and it does cross below full coverage of the calf though. It is about what I was thinking. It covers the knee, but not the muscle around the knee. I will play with my template tonight and post pics. I am pretty close to that already.

Note: I noticed that both men are wearing a small linen pad right around the ankle area. Is that acceptable? I think it would definately make it more comfortable.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You may prefer to work on simpler forms,also accurate. Like this
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Kelte_Schwa ... _gross.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/vor_der_Tur_gross.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Kelten_Grabhugel.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Galerie/Gla ... tung_1.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Galerie/Die ... ustung.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Celts_time_gross.jpg
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Litzelsee_gross.jpg
Ok,I think those are more than enough. You can find hundrets more here:
http://www.hallstattzeit.de/Galerie/galerie.html
They also seem to have perfect fit.
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

Okay. Here is what "I Think" is the correct template for my leg. I have cut a posterboard template and transferred it to aluminum foil to test fit it to the cast. The following pictures document all four sides of the leg. Note that the aluminum foil pulls away from the leg when I let go so it isn't holding tight in the back. When held, it comes to about a 1" to a 1 1/4" gap down the back of the leg.

I am looking for feedback on coverage, shape, and general look to the greave. The next step is to cut it out so I want any critical/constructive feedback now on its look. I will try my hardest to get the bronze to look just like this.

[Chris B]

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think it looks perfect! As if it fits perfectly in your actual leg( :roll: :lol: ). No,this is the correct form really. Some nice ancient pairs appear to have had more rounded the angles in the opening behind the knee,but again,some others had them more sharp,so it's a matter of taste and I think your's is fine. Have you figured out how you'll beat the bronze in this shape? Hopefully it'll be easier than the previous pair you made,as it's thinner plate this one,isn't it?
Khaire
Giannis

[Chris B]

It is thinner plate. I am still not quite sure. I plan on annealing it more often for starters. Can you see the curve of the bone in the center of the greave curving to the center of the knee? It looks like there is a natural path down the center that I think I will set in the metal first. Then I think I will draw the exact surface area of the knee and partially start the dish.

Then I will probable start curving it around the calf inch by inch checking fit every bend. So basically, I think I am going to start closing it around the leg from center front out to the edges an inch at a time, making absolutely sure the topography of the leg is right as I start to close the next inch behind the previous section.

Then I will finish the knee shape and close the knee's outer edges close to the thigh. I don't know. At this point I am just kind of thinking out loud. I'll dwell on it more over the upcoming week.

Just a thought. Does anyone think the ancients could have made a mold like I did out of clay and poured iron or something hard into the mold? I was wondering if they could have used some sort of metal cast to hammer them out and then melt it back down after they were done to re-use again on someone elses leg. I am sure they could just hammer them out after doing it so many times though. Like I said, just a thought.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I don't think you can hammer bronze plate on a mold to make it take its shape. The bronze is too elastic. You need to stretch it far more so it'll return to the shape you want,and a hard background like iron doesn't let you do so. I was thinking doing this with the thin cover of m aspis,but after some very poor experimenation(and warns about the results by Matt),i think i'll have to hammer it out.
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

It all sounds good so far, Chris. The only thing I'd do is leave an extra half-inch or so of metal all around the edge for a fudge factor. You can always trim off what you don't need, but come up short anywhere and you'll be mad. Again.

Anneal, anneal, anneal.

The Greeks couldn't cast iron, so any solid leg form could only have been bronze. Nothing like that has been found, to my knowledge, nor is anything like that shown in vase paintings and such. I'd be they just used the regular anvils, stakes, and hammers to make whatever shape they wanted. They were GOOD at this stuff! It's also likely that they didn't just do one section or aspect at a time, but did the whole process in parallel, i.e., not just dishing out the calf area before forming the tube and then getting the curvature, but doing all three at once as needed.

I wonder if TOMAR would help? "Techniques of Medieval Armor Reproduction" by Brian Price, THE book for modern medieval armorers. (I don't have it, myself!) Probably has some very valuable insights. Folks on places like the Armour Archive have done late medieval greaves, generally with front and back plates so they aren't quite the same process, but they still have to fit the leg so it might be worth seeing what they did. They also have arguments very similar to ours about just how the original pieces were made!

http://www.armourarchive.org/

Oh, when I did my greave pattern, I made parallel slits in the cardboard where it had to be dished, since the metal would stretch out in that area. Will that help?

Good luck!

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

Helmet forms have been found in, made of stone and in a Hellenistic context IIRC.

[Chris B]

It isn't readily apparent, but I did build in a small fudge factor for the greave. The cast of the leg is actually slightly bigger than my calf, expansion of the mortar I guess. I also started the new templates using the old version so I know there is enough metal to wrap the leg.

I also now changed my order to a 4 foot piece of bronze instead of the 2 foot because they couldn't get the 2 foot piece until mid June, and I am not willing to wait. Now I will have my new metal Tuesday and enough to try it several times again. I am going to pretend I only have enough for one attempt though. It's kind of like the difference between hunting with a bolt action or semi-auto. You have a lot more incentive to take a carefully aimed shot with the bolt action because you don't have the next round immediately available.

I'm psyching myself up again to spend another 100 hours on this. Man I have some serious time into these greaves..........

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hey Chris,this photo has some excellent helmets on it,but that caption of the greave is really good,too.
http://flickr.com/photos/69405869@N00/3 ... 496112518/
Khaire
Giannis