Late Roman swords usage

[Caballo]

The hilt shown in this last picture of the Gods

[Robert Vermaat]

Where is this fresco Robert? In which museum can it be seen?

It's in situ I think.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I wonder if this is the same problem that Vegetius bemoans in general...the soldiery becoming too lax and undisciplined to wear armour, helmets...perhaps swords became too much of an encumbrance too?

A bunch of big girls blouses responsible for the collapse of the empire ....? :roll:

[Robert Vermaat]

I wonder if this is the same problem that Vegetius bemoans in general...the soldiery becoming too lax and undisciplined to wear armour, helmets...perhaps swords became too much of an encumbrance too?

A bunch of big girls blouses responsible for the collapse of the empire ....? :roll:

Naughty Byron! :wink:

You know perfectly well that that
a) Vegetius is not to be trusted on this one, and
b) Late Romans were NOT "a bunch of big girls blouses responsible for the collapse of the empire"!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: GRRRRRRRRRR

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, ok..... :wink:

But he must have had reason to write about the soldiers not wearing their armour....I do recall a thread about the debunking of his writing...but then......... :roll: :lol:

[Robert Vermaat]

But he must have had reason to write about the soldiers not wearing their armour....I do recall a thread about the debunking of his writing...but then......... :roll: :lol:

Of course he did. Debunking the present and painting a rosy picture of the past's virtues had been all the rage since, well, ages. The Greeks did it, Tacitus did it, heck modern politicians still do it all the time! Vegetius was not different, and his writings were most likely intended to gain the attention of the 'upper echelons', most likely to secure him a nice job.

But we know from written as well as artistic sources that armour was still worn throughout the 4th c. and after, contrary to Vegetius' writings.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Great! I'll be donning chainmail for my impression then......Ooooops, Feline on the loose there!! :lol:

[Theodosius the Great]

Here's another silver plate, dated to the 6th or 7th century, showing a scabbard. This is a biblical scene of David vs. Goliath. Goliath (right foreground) wears a scabbard.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2 ... 90.396.jpg

What I find striking is that the scabbard does not use a slider. Instead it seems to use the old Roman ring attachment method. No belt is visible so the soldier must be using a baldric.

See this drawing for more detail :

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... IKION3.JPG

~Theo

[Crispvs]

Thanks for putting that up Theo. I see no evidence of a baldric and so perhaps (asuming it was important to the artist of course) it supposed to be attached to the belt, with the requitite straps being confused in the eye of the viewer with the folds of the tunic. I see what you mean about the ring suspension but to my mind it seems to have more in common with the distributor rings used in sword scabbard suspension by the later Vikings than with late Republican and early Imperial two or four ring suspension.

Crispvs

[Salvianus]

I knew I had another source: the diptych of Stilicho circa 400 A.D., with a nice arced scabbard slide on a secondary belt:

[Agraes]

I think a comparison can be raised between this 6th century silver plate and the 5th century Brightampton saxon sword. I did discuss this with Tony Drake and he may explain better than me the suspension system.
The scabbard chape does look very similar aswell, in U.


As you can see, there is two pairs of scabbard sliders here.

And here several late roman or early byzantine sword suspension possibilities as depicted on iconography:

[Theodosius the Great]

I suspect the 'Goliath' scabbard is using a suspension system like the one in this drawing. It's neither the traditional 'ring' nor 'slider' systems.

I'm unsure if this is how the Vikings did it, but the drawing above is of a 4th century Arab auxiliary. I wouldn't call the fittings 'rings' since they are shaped like question marks.

Agraes,

Yes, that scabbard you posted does seem to closely mirror the Goliath scabbard. I'd like to hear Tony Drake's explanation about the suspension system. From the photo it's difficult to judge for certain what method was used.

Thank you for posting the drawing as well.

~Theo

[Crispvs]

I think you might be onto something there Theo, as one of the apparent folds which could also be a strap connects very conveniently to some sort of fitting which seems to pass around the scabbard.

Crispvs

[Theodosius the Great]

I think so, as well, Crispvs.

Here's the best evidence I've found so far, a 7th century Persian sword and scabbard. (click the photo for higher rez)

Also found this drawing from Osprey title 'Roman Military Clothing (3)'. And here. It's based on a panel from Santa Sabina in Rome. But the panel doesn't seem to show much detail on the scabbard. I wonder if Graham Sumner made the drawing.

~Theo

[Medicus matt]

I suspect the 'Goliath' scabbard is using a suspension system like the one in this drawing. It's neither the traditional 'ring' nor 'slider' systems.

But it is very similar to the sort of suspension systems seen on Avar and Magyar scabbards as can be seen on these pictures from Budapest (apologies for the quality)