Lanyards on Gladii?

[Robert]

Perhaps the lanyard was not so much a wristloop as a thong. Wound around the wrist it would prevent the gladius dropping free, but a few quick flicks would release the thong presto. But this is speculation all, also strange there are two rings.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think there is a point that we have to consider in this, there is the battle tactic of throwing the Pilum and then drawing the sword. The pilum would have been thrown in the last 25yds of contact with the enemy, just how in hell would anyone have the time to consider a wrist strap or even apply such a thing before your enemy comes down on top of you. I have read all the comments on this subject and I'm now starting to remember, when I was a small child my mother used to fix my gloves together with a string so that I would not lose them. {come on guys be realistic}

[A_Volpe]

I think Brian might be onto something here.

Maybe this lanyard was attached to the scabbard, so, if you needed to drop your gladius quickly, you would not lose it...Now, that does present a potential danger of the sword swinging about and cutting up your legs or anyone around you...So...Still thinking about that.

but the idea of a lanyard both gladiatorial and legionary, it reminds me of images of the 1300's-1400's of Knights, where they sometimes had their daggers and swords attached to their breastplates via chains.

[sulla felix]

I think there is a point that we have to consider in this, there is the battle tactic of throwing the Pilum and then drawing the sword. The pilum would have been thrown in the last 25yds of contact with the enemy, just how in hell would anyone have the time to consider a wrist strap or even apply such a thing before your enemy comes down on top of you. I have read all the comments on this subject and I'm now starting to remember, when I was a small child my mother used to fix my gloves together with a string so that I would not lose them. {come on guys be realistic}

So in battlefield conditions how long does it take to run 25 yards after the initial shock of thrown pila has worn off? Bolt might do it in about 4 or 5 seconds! But then he was just wearing a pair of shorts and vest on a perfectly flat running track.

What is your interpretation of the EVIDENCE (see first post attachment)? Are the loops just for ornamentation?

[sulla felix]

Perhaps the lanyard was not so much a wristloop as a thong. Wound around the wrist it would prevent the gladius dropping free, but a few quick flicks would release the thong presto. But this is speculation all, also strange there are two rings.

I agree - seems it is only difficult to do this when you would rather not consider the possibility :lol:

[PhilusEstilius]

I have gone back to the first post Barry and as you say you are not sure if these were fixed to swords and ask for ideas. I don't think the Roman soldier would have considered this idea at all, and as far as the Pilum throw this was done with the whole line of soldiers stationary and then waiting for the enemy to run onto their shield wall. If indeed anyone had his sword beaten out of his hand, this is where the Pugio comes into play for Im sure no one would have the stupidity to try to retrieve the sword from behind his shield. The Pugio has a 9 to 10 inch blade which is enough to thrust out at the side of a shield until a better moment presents itself to get the sword back. I just do not think that these things belong to swords at all, and the whole idea of a lanyard would just cause more problems than it was meant to prevent.

[sulla felix]

So that begs the question what are these loops for then? Or are you denying that these loops exist :?

[Magnus]

They could be for anything really...or nothing at all and simply some kind of trend.

[Tim Edwards]

I think we should focus less on our modern preconceptions on what we believe to be practical, but more on the raw archaeology.

Firstly, where were these found? I cannot recall seeing any similar pieces in the UK, although such an item could easilily be identified as non military/something else. Perhaps in future we should keep a good look out for more examples in museums, reports etc.

Crucially, if they occur in context, when do they date to?

My own opinion is that these are indeed lanyard fittings, as we see in contemporary gladiatorial reliefs.

However, I feel the practice could not have been widespread, or long lasting, or many more examples would have been found, or otherwise as Matt says, perhaps a short term trend.

Many of the more intact swords recovered do not seem to show this characteristic.

The reconstruction mentioned ealier in the discussion is by Erik Koenig of Aurificina Treverica, and it is his reproduction of the Republican era gladius from Es Soumaa in Tunisia.

See here:

http://www.replik-online.de/en/index.html

[Caballo]

I agree- and A200 (on the left of the posted picture from Miks) shows (I think) a fastening device on the top of the pommel. The Rheingonheim sword had a similar thing (though I haven't found a picture yet). The interpretation of a lanyard seems quite plausible to me, based on the archaeology, as the simplest solution.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well to be honest, I tend to agree with Brian, the idea of throwing a pilum and then drawing swords (after puting wrist through a lanyard) does not give you much time. Its true to say they shock of the pilum volley would throw them into dissarray, but what about when facing romans? Or gauls who do not give you time to throw your pilums...?

I have to say it might be a possibility for a Centurion again, but I cannot see it as really viable for rank anf ile troops.

[Tim Edwards]

I dont think anyone was disagreeing with Brian, and personally I agree on practical grounds alone...

However, we started the topic by looking at archaeological finds and have drifted onto a discussion about theoretical combat.

If people are absolutely convinced that these items can not be for lanyard loops, based on their own practical experience, then perhaps they should look for an alternate explanation for these finds.

No one is arguing that all heavy infantry must have been using lanyards on their gladii, but rather that there may be evidence that some soldiers at least, even if only for a short period of time, were adopting the practice.

Lets see if we can establish a firm context, ie where these items were found, and when they date to.

We might also look for further parallels.

[Tim Edwards]

Incidentally, what does Miks say about all this?!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, my conjecture on it being a centurions comes directly from Caballos post of the Rhiengonhiem sword....silver plated, with a ring...as good a candidate as any...and from Miks too!

[A_Volpe]

I had another thought about this just now - We have these "camp knives", such as the ones found in Vindolanda and other sites -

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/knives.jpg

These obviously have loops for lanyards...So, what purpose do these lanyards provide? One of our members in Leg III Cyr - Ti. Horatius - takes his knife with lanyard and loops it over his neck like a necklace, easy to carry, easy to access. Maybe another way is to 'hang' the knife from the handle of say your pugio or gladius (something I have tried) - One can also loop the lanyard over the wrist so you don't lose your knife.

OR - could this be for a "safety tie"? For transporting my gear to events, as well as when I'm surrounded by people and wish to prevent people from grabbing my weapons - I take a long leather tie, tie it to one suspension ring on the scabbard, wrap it around twice around the handle/grip, then tie it down to the opposing ring on the scabbard. Wah-lah! Noone can pull the sword unless they untie the knot.

So maybe this lanyard is used to tie the sword down to the scabbard to prevent it from falling out, and/or prevent someone else from grabbing it. Maybe a slipknot tied so it can easily be pulled open.

Maybe the 'knob' on the pommel had a leather strap from the scabbard that buttoned on this pommel knob ~ much like a safety strap on a pistol holster.

I do this for my camp knife as well, since the thing is Razor sharp, I want it to stay in it's scabbard, so I tie it to the scabbard to it won't fall out.

So, I'm now thinking Gladiators used the lanyards as mentioned earlier, so they don't drop it, as well as not having scabbards, hung them on armory walls in the arena ~ Soldiers may have used layards, but as tie-downs, or a way to keep the weapon un-sheathed but still easily acessable[/url]

Or still...Considering these are Roman parts... Maybe these little rings were just decoration - like the danglies on our belts and sheaths on our dolabrae...Just to jingle and jangle and look pretty!

Going back to the original post with the illustrations: I'm looking at items B71,1 B71,2 and B177,1 - These have "4" ring loops on them, where the others have 2. But would not one loop/ring be sufficient for a lanyard? So then why 2, why 4? Looking at B71,1 - The loops holding the rings in place are bent over, and it looks awfully thin and flimsy - I don't think this looks strong enough for abuse if this was a wrist lanyard... Yes, the scabbard rings are held on with brass loops, but those are very wide and crimped, structually stronger IMHO than these 'lanyard' loops.

B120,2 to me looks much more solidly constructed, looking maybe like it's a cast piece ~ that and there appears to be only one loop/ring...

Interesting stuff!