Lanyards on Gladii?

[john m roberts]

Many modern swords - 17-20th centuries - have small rings or piercings for tassels. Maybe the Romans liked tassels too.

[M. Demetrius]

I was thinking sort of the same thing. Tassels or some kind of organic decoration/amulet. But really, it's just a guess.

[sulla felix]

If people are absolutely convinced that these items can not be for lanyard loops, based on their own practical experience, then perhaps they should look for an alternate explanation for these finds.

Thanks Tim - that was point of posting the extract from Miks! I suggested lanyards or wrist straps because it seemed like the only plausible explanation to me.

[sulla felix]

I have to say it might be a possibility for a Centurion again, but I cannot see it as really viable for rank anf ile troops.

Surely Centurions lead from the front which gives them even less time than "rank and file" does it not?

[sulla felix]

Incidentally, what does Miks say about all this?!

Unfortunately Tim my German is non-existant! Part of the reason for my initial post was the vain hope that another German speaking RATer might be able to enlighten us! I'll see if I can figure out the relevant section of text and try and post it.

[sulla felix]

I had another thought about this just now - We have these "camp knives", such as the ones found in Vindolanda and other sites -

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/knives.jpg

These obviously have loops for lanyards...So, what purpose do these lanyards provide? One of our members in Leg III Cyr - Ti. Horatius - takes his knife with lanyard and loops it over his neck like a necklace, easy to carry, easy to access. Maybe another way is to 'hang' the knife from the handle of say your pugio or gladius (something I have tried) - One can also loop the lanyard over the wrist so you don't lose your knife.

OR - could this be for a "safety tie"? For transporting my gear to events, as well as when I'm surrounded by people and wish to prevent people from grabbing my weapons - I take a long leather tie, tie it to one suspension ring on the scabbard, wrap it around twice around the handle/grip, then tie it down to the opposing ring on the scabbard. Wah-lah! Noone can pull the sword unless they untie the knot.

So maybe this lanyard is used to tie the sword down to the scabbard to prevent it from falling out, and/or prevent someone else from grabbing it. Maybe a slipknot tied so it can easily be pulled open.

Maybe the 'knob' on the pommel had a leather strap from the scabbard that buttoned on this pommel knob ~ much like a safety strap on a pistol holster.

I do this for my camp knife as well, since the thing is Razor sharp, I want it to stay in it's scabbard, so I tie it to the scabbard to it won't fall out.

So, I'm now thinking Gladiators used the lanyards as mentioned earlier, so they don't drop it, as well as not having scabbards, hung them on armory walls in the arena ~ Soldiers may have used layards, but as tie-downs, or a way to keep the weapon un-sheathed but still easily acessable[/url]

Or still...Considering these are Roman parts... Maybe these little rings were just decoration - like the danglies on our belts and sheaths on our dolabrae...Just to jingle and jangle and look pretty!

Going back to the original post with the illustrations: I'm looking at items B71,1 B71,2 and B177,1 - These have "4" ring loops on them, where the others have 2. But would not one loop/ring be sufficient for a lanyard? So then why 2, why 4? Looking at B71,1 - The loops holding the rings in place are bent over, and it looks awfully thin and flimsy - I don't think this looks strong enough for abuse if this was a wrist lanyard... Yes, the scabbard rings are held on with brass loops, but those are very wide and crimped, structually stronger IMHO than these 'lanyard' loops.

B120,2 to me looks much more solidly constructed, looking maybe like it's a cast piece ~ that and there appears to be only one loop/ring...

Interesting stuff!

Some good thoughts here Andy - thanks!

[sulla felix]

OK here is the relevant information extracted from Miks:

A200, first image left hand side is noted as Sammlung Guttmann/Berlin and I think is findspot unknown. It comes from a Mainz (Klassisch variant using the Miks typology) which would seem to date it to latest 1st Cent AD using his table (I think?),

B71,1 is noted as Delbruck-Anreppen, date unknown although Miks applies his own typology of Magdalensburg to this piece.

B177 1,2, and 3 (there are in fact 5 of these on the full page in Miks) are all noted as Magdalensberg and all apparently dated to the end of the first century AD (I think?). These finds seem to be where Miks gets his "Magdalensberg" typology for these pommel nuts from.

B328,1 (not visible in extract above) is noted as Windisch (Vindonissa) date unknown, although Miks applies his own typology of Magdalensburg to this piece.

B120,1 (third left in extract above) and B120,2 are noted as Haltern date unknown, although Miks applies his own typology of Magdalensburg to these pieces.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I have to say it might be a possibility for a Centurion again, but I cannot see it as really viable for rank anf ile troops.

Surely Centurions lead from the front which gives them even less time than "rank and file" does it not?

But he wouldn't be 'chukin' spears....so would have his drwn from the start I imagine....I don't quite go with the idea he goes into battle armed with his vinestick!

[M. Demetrius]

...the fierce expression of the scarred and seasoned Centurio, with his ptyruges and rows of phalerae, accompanied by a menacing vine stick were frequently all that was needed to unnerve the enemy, frequently starting a rout in the opposing ranks.

There you go, vinestick and all, GJC!

[sulla felix]

I have to say it might be a possibility for a Centurion again, but I cannot see it as really viable for rank anf ile troops.

Surely Centurions lead from the front which gives them even less time than "rank and file" does it not?

But he wouldn't be 'chukin' spears....so would have his drwn from the start I imagine....I don't quite go with the idea he goes into battle armed with his vinestick!

Centurions did not throw pila? As a matter of interest is that a known fact or one of those oft quoted myths that then become "fact"?

[M. Demetrius]

I wouldn't be surprised a bit if centurions threw pila at the same time as everybody else. I don't think they brought their vitis into battle, though, that was for the camp.

(And yes, Byron, I made up that "quoted" ancedote above, just for you. Don't you feel special now?) :wink: :lol:

[Matt Lukes]

I prefer no lanyard based on my simulated combat experiences.
Why? Because we now take at least three weapons with us for different uses (pilum, gladius and pugio) and a lanyard makes a quick change over near to impossible.

Save that chucking the pilum goes first, and that's at a distance of 20m or so IIRC, which means there's plenty of time to put your hand through a strap before you hit the enemy line (unless they're running at you, and even then the pilum volley may well slow them up).

Yeah, I was just thinking that....what if your gladius blade breaks? Now you've got a useless weapon stuck to your wrist...it would make a weapon change extremely hard.

Breakage isn't an issue- Roman swords weren't high-carbon, hardened and tempered blades so no breakage- at worst they'd bend and really their extra thicknesses, etc. are design features to restrict this, and even if it happens, it can be bent back. The G. pompeiiensis often had even a reinforced point to prevent that bending and becoming useless. Plus I'd doubt switching to the pugio was an excessively rare event and likely a bit too remote a concern- just like what happens if the chest belt of the Lorica segmentata were broken in battle.

The loops seen dangling from gladiatorial sword pommels may have been for hanging them from pegs in the armories, since they are never depicted as sheathed and may in fact never have even had sheaths. However, the recently recovered very large Republican-era gladiatorial relief clearly shows the loop around the gladiators' wrists. However, these cords seem to be attached below the pommel rather than to a ring atop it.

It makes sense to also use it for that purpose, hanging-up, but clearly the depiction shows the strap being used as expected and it makes far more sense for the hanging being a 'secondary' purpose instead of the securing to the wrist being so. Plus the ringed pommel nut is an old piece from army weapons, so it would seem that just like so much else, the gladiator stuff rose from the army and the army didn't hang their swords.

I think there is a point that we have to consider in this, there is the battle tactic of throwing the Pilum and then drawing the sword. The pilum would have been thrown in the last 25yds of contact with the enemy, just how in hell would anyone have the time to consider a wrist strap or even apply such a thing before your enemy comes down on top of you. I have read all the comments on this subject and I'm now starting to remember, when I was a small child my mother used to fix my gloves together with a string so that I would not lose them. {come on guys be realistic}

But these are hardly farmers- training can make a man expert in anything. Putting your wrist in a strap is hardly a major skill either. And everyone's precluding the idea that it wasn't always used- just because it's there to use, doesn't mean it had to be.

I think Brian might be onto something here.

Maybe this lanyard was attached to the scabbard, so, if you needed to drop your gladius quickly, you would not lose it...Now, that does present a potential danger of the sword swinging about and cutting up your legs or anyone around you...So...Still thinking about that.

but the idea of a lanyard both gladiatorial and legionary, it reminds me of images of the 1300's-1400's of Knights, where they sometimes had their daggers and swords attached to their breastplates via chains.

But in a battle, having a sword dragging around behind you doesn't sound like a great idea and just how often might this kind of thing ever happen? There's evidence of a wrist strap to prevent dropping- and that seems like a reasonable worry, but little else is nearly so likely.

Firstly, where were these found? I cannot recall seeing any similar pieces in the UK, although such an item could easilily be identified as non military/something else. Perhaps in future we should keep a good look out for more examples in museums, reports etc.

Crucially, if they occur in context, when do they date to?

My own opinion is that these are indeed lanyard fittings, as we see in contemporary gladiatorial reliefs.

However, I feel the practice could not have been widespread, or long lasting, or many more examples would have been found, or otherwise as Matt says, perhaps a short term trend.

Many of the more intact swords recovered do not seem to show this characteristic.

Miks has them as early type pommel 'nuts'- in fact, nothing earlier in the Roman context is listed- and it appears on a number of G. mainzensis blades- one of two ends, the other being the tang simply peened over a sheet metal 'washer'. They seem to be from all over Europe, and since the Herculaneum Solider's transition sword has one, clearly it was still in use in perhpas the third quarter of the 1st century CE. Miks states that the namesake from Magdelensburg is dated to the 1st century BCE.

[PhilusEstilius]

This idea of a lanyard just does not make a lot of sence from the point of view of the Pilum thro', this is a weapon that has a short distance use where the enemy would be almost on top of you. The pilum is thrown the sword is drawn the scutum is picked up and the rear rank steps forward to fill the 2 meter gaps to create a shield wall, so how would anyone find the time to fix on a wrist strap in the amount of time that all of these actions take place for remember the Pilum is thrown with the right hand and also the Sword is used in the right.
If we look at some of these items one has to say yes they look as if they carried straps or thongs but for another purpose other than swords.

[Magnus]

I agree, there's just not enough time. Sure, it may stop the first couple of guys (the javelin throw) but you still have to contend with running enemy who are going to close the distance faster than you can put your wrist through a loop.

I would also contest that a movement such as putting your hand through a loose, non-stationary thong would require fine motor skills. Something that goes right out the window regardless of drill and practice once adrenaline and actual combat comes into play. We're taught the same in the military and police service, which is why "big dumb movements" and instinct are stressed over fine, comlex ones. That way you don't end up dead.

I don't disagree with the idea of the thong, but I don't think it was used immediately after the throwing of the javelin...perhaps in a more controlled setting where they had time.

[arklore70]

Having a copy of Miks myself and thumbing through the pages, I have to agree with Barry that there does seem to be a lot of evidence that some sort of lanyard quite possible could have been used.

I however also agree with Magnus, and Sean that it a combat scenario, attaching a lanyard to the wrist or around the thumb and wrapped around the wrist like a riot baton is rather improbable after immediately throwing your pilum and charging into the enemy.

I think Brian and Dudicus are on to something, and perhaps like the later knights of the 1300-1400s the other end of the lanyard attached to not to the soldier himself but to his scabbard or his belt instead. Perhaps, this might explain the purpose of the other ring ( the 4th one) on the suspension bands of the scabbard?

On my modern kit, my pistol and m4 carbine were always "dummy tied or attached to lanyard" to my body armor or belt.

While in a modern case, I really don't want my pistol or M4 carbine dangling by the lanyard or dummy cord, it sure beats it being lost, or accidentally left behind in the heat of battle, let alone somebody else stealing away from it.

A bit back on track, I think it is very likely that the loops/rings on the pommel nuts were used for some sort of lanyard, or alternately perhaps as a point of attachment for tassels or some other sort of decorative attachment. Of course, all of this is really speculative best guess stuff, subject to interpretation.

Good stuff though