Lanyards on Gladii?

[Magnus]

The only issue Barry as I said before, is that quick transition from weapon to weapon (pila gladius), especially when facing an oncoming enemy charge. We (II AVG) did some tests with an enemy charging from what would be considered just beyond pila range. From the time of impact to where some of the enemy would still continue past is a mere second or so...putting a thong onto your wrist, no matter how big it is would be nearly impossible.

So for that situation, it may not work, but pehaps as I believe previously mentioned, there were certain circumstances where a thong was needed. Maybe it was personal choice, who knows. Based on my own experience in doing needlefelt combat, I don't think I would have time to use the thong. Having said that, there was a time when I hit a dude in the head and dropped my gladius over the side of the wall. Not good lol.

But some gladii pommels feature this, some don't. So either it was a personal choice, or something to do with a given type of combat situation...at least that I can think of.

[Matt Lukes]

That relief, plus the gladiator relief certainly are elegant proof that wrist loops were used on some swords- clearly those with the Magdalensburg type pommel 'nut' would be suitable candidates. The Gladiator relief alone was compelling but had the problem of its nature- just because some Gladiators used a strap didn't strongly suggest the army used them; this second relief helps that issue a lot.

And not all the Magdalensburg type nuts have 4 rings, some have only 2- granted only one is necessary for a strap, but then one must never forget that often enough decoration is as common as functional elements. They don't actually make any significant jingle noise though- I've made a couple of these now and unless actually turned quite significantly, the rings tend to just lie flat; plus they're very small so there isn't a lot of metal there to vibrate and make any sound.

As for the purpose and 'problems' with the use of a wrist loop, it certainly does seem to be the case that it was dispensed with at some point; the Gladius pompeiiensis eventually had no provision for one- the Pompeii 'soldier''s weapon had a Magdalensburg nut, but the well known ex-Guttmann blade (now in the Royal Armouries, Leeds) had a nut with no loops.

The interesting thing I think is that there are at least 7 gladii known with this kind of nut with rings- 5 are G. mainzensis blades, one a G. pompeiiensis and one Miks calls it a Mainz var. Mühlbach (a narrow blade reminiscent the G. hispaniensis style)- all shown in Miks save the one Barry posted about, oddly missing from the book; pommel nuts are actually relatively rare in general- many fewer blades have them than don't, and of the classic G. mainzensis style blades, the majority have the Magdalensburg nut. I don't see any with a different form and only a couple with simple, crude rhomboidal 'washers', which could, for all anyone knows, be secondary pieces- re-hilted blades that nobody bothered to draw out the tang again to be able to reinstall the original nut.

[Tarbicus]

From the time of impact to where some of the enemy would still continue past is a mere second or so...putting a thong onto your wrist, no matter how big it is would be nearly impossible.

For the front rank only?

[Folkert van Wijk]

I came across this picture of one of these interesting pommel end pieces in situ on a blade from Singidunum ofthe Mainz type dated 1st century BC to first century AD. The rings are substantial. The sword and scabbard are in excellent condition and there is an owner's inscription which gives the name and unit served in (Legio III Scythica).

These are spare hamata rings for a quick repair on the field... :wink:

[Magnus]

From the time of impact to where some of the enemy would still continue past is a mere second or so...putting a thong onto your wrist, no matter how big it is would be nearly impossible.

For the front rank only?

Depends how many of the ranks you figure threw for the first initial charge...1-3 safely I'd say. I mean, is it established if all ranks carried and used pila, or was it on a need-to-use basis? If that's the case, then all troops not using missile weapons could for sure use a thong.

[sulla felix]

The only issue Barry as I said before, is that quick transition from weapon to weapon (pila gladius), especially when facing an oncoming enemy charge. We (II AVG) did some tests with an enemy charging from what would be considered just beyond pila range. From the time of impact to where some of the enemy would still continue past is a mere second or so...putting a thong onto your wrist, no matter how big it is would be nearly impossible.

So for that situation, it may not work, but pehaps as I believe previously mentioned, there were certain circumstances where a thong was needed. Maybe it was personal choice, who knows. Based on my own experience in doing needlefelt combat, I don't think I would have time to use the thong. Having said that, there was a time when I hit a dude in the head and dropped my gladius over the side of the wall. Not good lol.

But some gladii pommels feature this, some don't. So either it was a personal choice, or something to do with a given type of combat situation...at least that I can think of.

A second or so! You'd have a hard time getting your hand on a gladius hilt full stop after throwing a pila surely! What do you consider to be effective pila range? I'd be willing to bet that a trained ancient soldier's effective range would be considerably more than modern guy who do this maybe a few weekends a year?

It is interestng that these pommel pieces do seem to appear more on Mainz type swords (based upon the surviving evidence of course), so you may be on to something about a type of combat situation where these were employed, or perhaps a style of fighting that was employed before the Pompeii type swords became more prominent?

[Magnus]

A second or so! You'd have a hard time getting your hand on a gladius hilt full stop after throwing a pila surely!

There was just enough time to get your hand on the hilt, draw and prep before enemy "impact". So perhaps I underexagerated a bit. The point is that trying to put a thong on as well would result in a celtic spear through your throat or worse lol.

What do you consider to be effective pila range? I'd be willing to bet that a trained ancient soldier's effective range would be considerably more than modern guy who do this maybe a few weekends a year?

I think this is a common mis-conception by modern reenactors. We're used to seeing javelins employed either by professional atheletes, or reenactors throwing under optimal conditions. However, the pilum was clearly a short-range throwing weapon. I wouldn't put the average throw by anyone much farther than 20-25 meters in a combat formation with shield and armour. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm in pretty damn good shape...I can generally out-throw anyone I'm with, and that is where I was putting them in terms of distance.

The throw should be timed such that the downwards arc of the javelin comes in contact with the forward running celts. If the javelin has a hang time of the first half of it's arc of around 1.5 seconds, then the optimal throwing distance is 1.5 seconds worth of distance covered by a running enemy. So my guess (we didn't quite measure) is about 70-75 feet or so. Or, if you hold out your thumb, if the enemy is approximately the same size as your thumb as you compare them, that's the right time to throw.

It is interestng that these pommel pieces do seem to appear more on Mainz type swords (based upon the surviving evidence of course), so you may be on to something about a type of combat situation where these were employed, or perhaps a style of fighting that was employed before the Pompeii type swords became more prominent?

Maybe, but as far as I know the pilum was in use as much so in the republic as it was the early empire...so I dunno. It could also have been some kind of rear rank thing or personal choice when a soldier was able to use it.

[Tim Edwards]

I'd tentatively suggest that these were in widespread use in military and gladiatorial spheres, but predominately in the Augustan era.

I disagree with the argument that they were not wrist loops, but instead were for securing the weapon onto a sheath or belt. Look at this gladiatorial image:

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If there was no evidence for these, I would have the same view as Matt.

However, to me it is pretty clear that some of the original soldiers we are trying to emulate adopted these, however impractical we may suppose these straps to be. I take their experience as credible.

[sulla felix]

Eloquently put Tim 8)

[Tarbicus]

From the time of impact to where some of the enemy would still continue past is a mere second or so...putting a thong onto your wrist, no matter how big it is would be nearly impossible.

For the front rank only?

Depends how many of the ranks you figure threw for the first initial charge...1-3 safely I'd say. I mean, is it established if all ranks carried and used pila, or was it on a need-to-use basis? If that's the case, then all troops not using missile weapons could for sure use a thong.

That depends on whether you go with the idea that they advanced at the charge to crash into the enemy, Braveheart style, or if they stopped to quickly regroup and get into an orderly fashion. Even then, one doesn't exclude the other under various circumstances.

If the lanyard is long and tied as a loop, and the end lightly tucked into the belt but spread out to make a wide entrance, surely it would only take a couple of seconds to get it wrapping around the wrist? Especially if you practiced the action every single day?

[M. Demetrius]

I think you raise a good point, Tarbicus. Whatever was the effective throwing range for pila/tela, whatever was the number of soldiers who threw them in a planned battle, however many ranks were so equipped and discharged their missiles to the enemy, however many of those with wrist thongs on their gladii--they practiced with their gear for months in basic training (ref Vegetius' De Rei Militari, et al.) I am fully convinced they trained and retrained during spare time in winter bivouac, so their skills (and blades) would not grow dull. (no historical reference presently available).

Surely no one really thinks that they simply lay around in tents and tending the fires during the long winter encampments. It's not unreasonable to think they did some kinds of military activities beyond mending and polishing armor and gear. That these thongs exist in the historical record means that somebody used them, though certainly not all soldiers. Igitur, those who used them had to have mastered their use.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Another possibility is to think that the sword can have a lanyard, but you can draw the sword without put your hand into the lanyard loop. Son, in a hurry, you don't have to use the lanyard, but if you have more time, you can draw the sword passing the hand by the loop and add an extra security to avoid loose your weapon...

Only braimstorming... :oops:

[Magnus]

Eloquently put Tim 8)

I wish I was eloquent! 8)

I disagree with the argument that they were not wrist loops, but instead were for securing the weapon onto a sheath or belt. Look at this gladiatorial image:.

I think this is just as probable a possibility as the wrist loop idea. We don't know how tight the scabbards were in terms of fitting to the blade, so in some cases it may have been necessary to secure the gladius better. A tie of some sort would have accomplished this. It could have been removed prior to going into battle.

Depends how many of the ranks you figure threw for the first initial charge...1-3 safely I'd say. I mean, is it established if all ranks carried and used pila, or was it on a need-to-use basis? If that's the case, then all troops not using missile weapons could for sure use a thong. That depends on whether you go with the idea that they advanced at the charge to crash into the enemy, Braveheart style, or if they stopped to quickly regroup and get into an orderly fashion. Even then, one doesn't exclude the other under various circumstances.

If the lanyard is long and tied as a loop, and the end lightly tucked into the belt but spread out to make a wide entrance, surely it would only take a couple of seconds to get it wrapping around the wrist? Especially if you practiced the action every single day?

Hey Jim, I think regardless you're going to have limited time, whether you re-group or plow ahead to take advantage of the pilum throw's shock value. And two objects traveling towards each other has even less time before "impact" than one moving object and one stationary.

If that lanyard is really long, I don't see how much value it is going to have...too long and even if it's twisted, it has a chance to come off your wrist if you drop your sword. I think you'd need something the "right" size for it to work. It reminds me of when I used to play raquetball and having a wrist thong was a must or else the raquet would go flying, but it had to be fairly tight.

...they practiced with their gear for months in basic training (ref Vegetius' De Rei Militari, et al.) I am fully convinced they trained and retrained during spare time in winter bivouac, so their skills (and blades) would not grow dull. (no historical reference presently available).

Surely no one really thinks that they simply lay around in tents and tending the fires during the long winter encampments. It's not unreasonable to think they did some kinds of military activities beyond mending and polishing armor and gear. That these thongs exist in the historical record means that somebody used them, though certainly not all soldiers. Igitur, those who used them had to have mastered their use.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested they didn't practice or drill constantly, nor were idle in winter months. That's not the issue. The problem is body mechanics. Regardless of how good and practiced a person can get, this type of movement is still without a doubt a fine motor skill. During stressful situations our bodies are unable to complete these types of tasks without multiple attempts (in this case, your time would run out and you'd be dead or weaponless in a melee). This is what we are trained to compensate for in use of force in the police service. So the bottom line, in my mind is that there isn't any physical way to get that thong on, immediately prior to a clash of arms. It has to be before, or for something else.

So yes, their existance and use is not in question at all. It's the circumstances of that usage. It would seem to me, in my opinon only that some possibilities are less likely than others.

I think in the end we need to test this...Barry, get that thing finished! lol

[Matt Lukes]

I wish I were eloquant, Matt LOL Just kidding :wink:

But it's not 'probable' that it's a wrist loop- there are two different depictions of it this way, and there are none for securing it to the scabbard or belt. And it's a mistake to assume they'd be expected to be used constantly- just becaus they're there doesn't mean they would be always used, right? Clearly the evidence shows they were used- there's simply no debating that. It's also a mistake I think to assume the pilum discharge were always the same- for all we know just as many engagements didn't involve pila, right?

[Tarbicus]

Surely no one really thinks that they simply lay around in tents and tending the fires during the long winter encampments. It's not unreasonable to think they did some kinds of military activities beyond mending and polishing armor and gear.

AFAIK Dave, unless exempted through special duties (and even there I might be wrong), they trained every day as standard practice.

If that lanyard is really long, I don't see how much value it is going to have...too long and even if it's twisted, it has a chance to come off your wrist if you drop your sword. I think you'd need something the "right" size for it to work. It reminds me of when I used to play raquetball and having a wrist thong was a must or else the raquet would go flying, but it had to be fairly tight.

Just tie a knot part way up the lanyard?

As Cesar says, it doesn't have to be used compulsorily, but the ranks not at the front could certainly do it.