Linothorax Pictures

[MeinPanzer]

Alas, it seems all our discussions might be fruitless, as after reviewing the original Russian-language thread in which this find was posted (through rough translation), it seems that the displayed cuirass is nothing more than a reconstruction. It did seem too good to be true.

I did manage to find some more images of the display, though:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... 8338_o.jpg


http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... 0423_5.jpg

And this is nonetheless a very important find, as scale armour is not commonly found in Thracian graves. Some pictures of the actual state of the find:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... C_0077.JPG

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... C_0065.JPG
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... C_0044.JPG

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi Ruben.......great photos,regardless of disappointment! Well done for finding and posting.

BTW, with reference to our earlier discussion of whether both iron and bronze scales are in use, image 65 seems to show both bronze ( green coloured) and iron ( rusty brown) scales on the original........

[MeinPanzer]

Hi Ruben.......great photos,regardless of disappointment! Well done for finding and posting.

BTW, with reference to our earlier discussion of whether both iron and bronze scales are in use, image 65 seems to show both bronze ( green coloured) and iron ( rusty brown) scales on the original........

I noticed that myself, but I still don't think that there is any indication of bronze in those images of the reconstructed cuirass.

[Kineas]

So--those scales, like the gorget that surfaced on RAT a few months ago, are circular... about 2.5 cm or 1 inch--is that right? Does that look right to everyone else?

Alternating iron rows and bronze rows would look spectacular... but those don't look alternating, do they? They look as if there is a transition of some sort.

I prefer the new pics--it is, after all, still a leather backed scale thorax. The other, I'm afraid, looked far to good to be true (but oh, I wanted to believe!)

Any way for us to contact the archaeology team directly? I'm trying from this end. If Cuyler Young were still alive... (Director of the Royal Ontario Museum--Scythian and Persian cultural and material culture guy--splendid archaeologist and scholar...) and I'll probably fail.

C.

[PMBardunias]

My question would be what did they base the reconstruction on? I'd like to see what they used for source material since some elements of this armor are bizarre.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

DISSAPOINTMENT What's the point of making a reconstruction that seems so real? Why didn't they wrap it correctly then? And why didn't they polish it? I still don't want to believe...I had seen the original pictures with the scales in Sitalkes' file in the yahoo group. Didn't know they came from this find. And we sure see both irona nd bronze scales. No such indication on the reconstruction. Are you sure about the translation,Ruben?
Khaire
Giannis

[john m roberts]

I love the triple-serpent crest on the Italo-Attic helmet. I've never seen anything like it before. Are there other examples?

[Kallimachos]

This should be an original, at least that's what I have been told. It's dated mid 4. B.C. The picture has been taken in a museum at Crimea. Sadly I don't know any more details, maybe one of you guys knows anything more about it. It's clearly iron and bronze by the way :-) )

[MeinPanzer]

That's an original, but AFAIK, it is just the scales, and no leather backing has been preserved.

[Paullus Scipio]

That one, I think, is the example from the Metropolitan Museum in New York....just the Tube, withe Yoke seemingly missing....

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, Gioi...these pieces are from the 5th C BC Scythian Sem 'Bratiev barrow in the Kuban, which was mentioned earlier ( Dr Cernenko stated that it overlapped on the left side. - see previous posts) and yes, the scale is leather backed. Similar Scythian leather backed scale pieces also exist in the Ashmolean Museum Oxford, England, which I have seen.

The pieces in the Ashmolean came from a warrior burial near the Black sea city of Nymphaeum, to the east of the Crimea. The scales were sewn to a double thickness leather backing (probably sheep or goatskin) with rawhide thongs, and the edges were leather bound with calf-skin.The scales were work hardened to a Vickers hardness of 175.

The scale corselet in this case was decorated with a bronze elk's head, rather than the Gorgon in your picture.....

[The Pope]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this site, but impressed with the wealth of knoledge and expertise shared. I've been a member of the hoplite association in the uk since 2001.

Can anyone please please tell me if and where this armour is on display.
I will book my tickets as soon as I find out.

[Jason Hoffman]

Hi all, sorry to have been away for so long, new job in Victoria, I am now one of the classics and Histoy Teachers at Girton Grammar School In Bendigo.

The only really good evidence that I have come across is the above mentioned peice in the Ashmolean Museum, what looks like the end of the shoulder harness and yes it is scale on leather backing.

The next best bit of evidence I have come across is the as yet unpublished finds at the so called 'Thebean Arsenal' Rumour has it that there are finds of organic armour but I will wait until I see some evidnce before I pass judgment.

The Leather 'thing' above is in the Met in New York and the curators there have already indicated that they are unsure of its origin or age.

[MeinPanzer]

The only really good evidence that I have come across is the above mentioned peice in the Ashmolean Museum, what looks like the end of the shoulder harness and yes it is scale on leather backing.

There are a few other pieces from Scythian finds, as well. They are all small, though, and most are very fragmentary.

The next best bit of evidence I have come across is the as yet unpublished finds at the so called 'Thebean Arsenal' Rumour has it that there are finds of organic armour but I will wait until I see some evidnce before I pass judgment.

Is this the Mycenaean-era one? I seem to recall some mention of a multi-layered linen fragment found at Thebes... Are you sure it's unpublished?

The Leather 'thing' above is in the Met in New York and the curators there have already indicated that they are unsure of its origin or age.

I agree entirely. The thing is unprovenanced and looks highly suspicious, especially because it is so much better preserved than any other leather finds that I am familiar with from the Crimea.

[Dan Howard]

Is this the Mycenaean-era one? I seem to recall some mention of a multi-layered linen fragment found at Thebes... Are you sure it's unpublished?

There are two extant finds of layered linen. One was at a Mycenaean grave shaft and was published some time ago. The other, more complete, example was recently found at Thebes and will not be published for some time.