How to portray a Spartan king from the classical era?

[hoplite14gr]

An archeologist can give you a dating for a piece of equipment but considering that weapons were handed down to the younger generation there is no real evidence how much a particular equipment type served through time periods.

Plus even in todays armies, complete uniformity is a problem and usually appears on parade not on campaign

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Corinthians are shown being worn by ordinary hoplites till about 450bc. The Italocorinthian helmets worn by officers and generals,or even the corinthian worn by Athena in coins and sculptures continues much more,after the hellenistic times.
Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for your help guys.

[Phalanx300]

Alright, I'm sorry to bother you guys again but I have a few more questions. (This might be getting a bit off-topic)

Now about the Periokoi, they would be wearing the Lambda, however I'm wondering was this standard or were there exceptions?(the skiritians? Tegeans?)

And the Boeotian shield, how was it held exactly? I found this video, is it a accurate depiction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKuy36OG_g


Also the reason I'm interested in the Boeotian shield are the Thespians mainly, which brings my to my last question.

At the time of Thermopylae, would they wear a Boeotian shield or an aspis? Since I've read somewhere that after Thermopylae their city was destroyed they took Boeotian shields?

[hoplite14gr]

Please search related threads for beotina shield.

The "lambda" appears after 418 B.C. first with Brasidas troops.
Photios "synopsis" using as a source Eupolis says that the Messenians used the "M" but Eupolis is dated quite later.

The Spartan army uses the "lambda" by mid 4th century.
All hoplites use it.

The Perioikoi distinction is uncertain but most ancient writers imply that the distinction was obvious.

Based on some pottery depictions I believe that classical period Perioikoi had the Mora emblem black or red on bronze unlike the Omioi who had full colours. The visible distinction probably ended with the "lambda".

Tegeans had their own shield emblem(under research)

Kind regards

P.S. have you seen my PM to you?
Thanks

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for your reply Stefanos.

Seems interesting about the Periokoi, having just bronze with the mora symbol red or black on it. And the Spartans just wearing the full mora colour emblem.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm wondering was this standard or were there exceptions?(the skiritians? Tegeans?)

Tegeans had their own shield emblem

The Tegeans were not Perioikoi,they were allies of Sparta and the distinction was also clear.The Peloponnesian leage was not Sparta's subordinate but full right allies,like Thebes and Corinth. However Tegeas was a close neighbour of Sparta,highly influenced by her and rather vital. Certainly not a perioic town.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks Yannis I forgot to make the distinction about Tegeans.

Most people regards Skiritans as perioikoi but there Skiritans with homioi status and being between Arkadians and Laconians ha influences from both.
They also were quick to revolt against the Arcadian league everytime that a Spartan army in the late classic and Hellenistic period was trying to restablish Spartan former greatness.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

I once again got some more questions (does it ever get old? :twisted: ).

Before the time of the mora(so Thermopylae to), would Spartans wear individual emblems? (like the saying of the Spartans with the lifesize fly)

And on the Hippeis, they were the 300 elite Spartiates, I read that they also were the Royal bodyguard of the king on campaign. However I also read somewhere else that the bodyguards and the hippeis are two seperate things.

Or was the Hippeis a bodyguard unit that was mostly just deplayed at the right of the line with the king behind the line giving orders?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The hippeis were the 300 Spartan bodyguards when on campaign.They were chosen by the 3 hippagretes,each one chose 100 hippeis.It doesn't seem that all of the hippeis had to have male children. However Herodotus points that out,that each of the 300 Spartans who were chosen for Thermopylae had male children. So these must not have been the hippeis. Now,in every Spartan campaign one of the Kings was in charge of the army. The king was usually fighting in the center of the Spartan phalanx,not to the right. Just usually the Spartans were placed to the right end. In Mantineia for instance,to the right were the Tegeans and just to the right of the Tegeans a tiny unit of Spartans were placed.
In Thermopylae there was not a Spartans army a portion of which would make the king bodyguard. The whole Spartan force was 300 hoplites.
In my opinion the number 300 does not mean anything in particular. It must be noted that this is a very common number when any other city or army made a special force. They may have had a religious significance,or perhaps they thought that this was the correct number of hoplites in order to be sufficient to fight and few enough to move rapidly. Throughout the peloponnesian was and perhaps earlier we see the number 300 very often,not only as a permanent force but occasionally,and usually by the name "logades". In contrats to Stefanos,I don't believe the "logades" was a city's special force,not was consisted of permanent members. When they were needed,some volunteers of the army took an oath before acting(from which took their name), and were acting as a unit until they fulfilled theit particular task.
Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the reply.

So the Hippeis were the elite bodyguard unit however they didn't really fought besides the king(in most cases) but on the right side of the line? Like the Macedonian Hypaspists basicly?

And the king fought and commanded in the center of the Spartan battle line(if so in the front line or in the center lines(from the 8 ), or was he commanding units behind the Spartan line?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The Hippeis were fighting in the center with the king. The king must have fough in the front line. That's why he needed bodyguards(Olympic or Pythia champions) fighting by him. After all,don't forget that Lenonidas fell relatively soon in the last day of Thermopylae. Not to mention that the front rank was the most honorable one.
In Mantineia the few Spartans were placed in the far end either to control the movement of the right side or just to claim the honorary position,although strategically the main body of their line was in the center,to face the Argives.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

That's why he needed bodyguards(Olympic or Pythia champions) fighting by him

I recently read a chapter in one of Powell's spartan titles about Spartans and the olympics. There was a table that showed almost all of the olympic victors in the last quarter of the 5th c were winners only of chariot racing. Since the winner of chariot races were not even the fellow driving, but the person who bred and trained the horses, this does not speak well for the qualification of a bodyguard! Perhaps someone knows more about the list of victors than was in this one chapter I found.

If these chariot winners were claiming rights such as a place of honor in the battle line, it puts an even greater emphasis on the way they would have been humbled by the incident with Kyniska. Her victory would have made a mockery of this system and the men who benefitted from it.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Lets not forget that the Hippagretae were in charge of who entered the lines of the hippeis,so they could chose. But even the winners of chariot races brought great honour on their name,and certainly fame. Look at Alkibiades.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Based on what we know Philp II and Kyniska were the "exceptions".

6th century Olympic champions from Athens came from th ePhylaidae clan and not only bred but also drove their horses. It is not unlikely that the Spartans did the same in absence of other info.

Plus that the realxation of habirs and the "breaking of tradition" had started in the late 5th century so Kyniska an Philip could do in their time what other were not allowed to do earlier.

Kind regards