my pugio of Risstissen

[PhilusEstilius]

Jef. and Xavier. I have to thank you both for the explanation of "Disqueuse" for my understanding of French is very poor indeed, my Wife who took French at school said it sounds like somthing circular so I said an Angle Grinder.
Thank you both again gentlemen.

[PhilusEstilius]

Where you mention this dagger is based on the Alleriot and myself mentioning angle grinder ( Disqueuse )
The blade should have a central rib and useing an angle grinder this is not such a difficult job to do, then also the handle was made with much hard work with a file.

I make my dagger handles hollow with plates that are punched out of thin sheet metal and the dagger tang is only very thin which makes it all less weight. Here is a link to how I do the handles

http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... /dh114.jpg

The piece of piywood that goes into the handle is only as thick as the blade of the dagger ( 5mm ) and the tang is only as big as the slot in the wood.

[Peroni]

Many examples of daggers with 'rod tangs' exist. The length of the tang varies greatly as can be seen on this blade.. The Kunzing hoard (3rd Century) is full of them! Another variation is that of the wider tab like the frame-sheath type dagger from Titelberg.


Titelberg..
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... gblade.jpg

[Virilis]

Superb work, Lucius! I especially like the blade shape of the pugio, one of the best I`ve seen so far! May I ask if the blades are sharp too?

[PhilusEstilius]

I do have to agree with you Adrian there are differing lengths on pugio tangs, infact the one you show does make one wonder if it was even longer and may have been peened down over a wood handle at it's end.
There is however the situation where so many that have full metal handles still intact tend to show the five rivet arrangement, so do we not have to consider if indeed there is a hole in the tang for that center rivet. For indeed with many blades there are no holes in the blade shoulder to fix the handle on.
There have been cases where people have mentioned glue to hold these things together, but then I don't think that I can go along with this idea so much.

I think that all the original ones I've seen that don't have any handle plates just simply did not have them they had to be all wood types otherwise some of the handle would be there.

[PhilusEstilius]

Xavier. Where I suggest the central rib on the dagger blade here is a link to a drawing of how I use an angle grinder to do this.

http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... midrib.jpg

The drawing is not to any scale it just shows how to get out the metal for the rib.

[M. Demetrius]

Good illustration! That makes total sense. I can't imagine doing that with a file. It would take ages. I suspect the originals may have been forged, using swage tools, but that has its own set of difficulties, right?

[PhilusEstilius]

David. That's very true the originals would have been forged and the central rib punched in while the iron of the blade was hot, infact the rib would have shown the same kind of configuration that I show in the drawing where I use an angle grinder.
Where I show the finished blade in cross section many originals also show this shape, however some even have much thinner blades of around 2.5 to 3 mm thickness at the central rib which tapers down to the cutting edge hence the central rib on a pugio to help give the blade some strength and prevent it from bending.

Infact they were a more delicate weapon than many re-enactors produce today however so many have still survived.
The drawing I have given is to help some to understand just how easy it is to make that rib.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I do have to agree with you Adrian there are differing lengths on pugio tangs, infact the one you show does make one wonder if it was even longer and may have been peened down over a wood handle at it's end.
There is however the situation where so many that have full metal handles still intact tend to show the five rivet arrangement, so do we not have to consider if indeed there is a hole in the tang for that center rivet. For indeed with many blades there are no holes in the blade shoulder to fix the handle on.
There have been cases where people have mentioned glue to hold these things together, but then I don't think that I can go along with this idea so much.

I think that all the original ones I've seen that don't have any handle plates just simply did not have them they had to be all wood types otherwise some of the handle would be there.

I have made one pugio with rod tang, and my solution were to peen the tang, as it were a sword. So, imagine that in a roman pugio the peening corrodes, then all the handle can be lost. We have a lot of swords and only a few with the original handling, but that fact does'nt mean all the handle were made in wood.

By the way, in that exemple i have made the handle plates in the same way as Xavier, adding some real silver inlay.

You can see the peening:

[Lucius Petilius Remo]

here is the subjected pugio type which me in has


for decors, they will see later!!! :wink:

[Lucius Petilius Remo]

here is the subjected pugio type which me in has.I adapted the decor of type RISSTISSEN over for the scabbard.


for decors, they will see later!!! :wink:

[PhilusEstilius]

Cesar. Where you say that you have made your pugio with a rod tang and it is peened over to hold the handle onto the blade, then you say the handle is made in the same method as the one by Xavier just how does the tang go through the handle. Is it where you have had to make a groove for the tang to go through the 2 solid steel pieces of the handle, and I cannot agree that if the peening were to corrode the handle would be lost.

[Crispvs]

Firstly, to Xavier: you have done a very nice job so far - well done!

I have a small number of points to make which should help you as you progress with the work.

I notice that you intend to use enamel for the inlay. In fact the Ristissen sheath you are copying was inlaid with brass, which was the usual material used for inlay work on type 'A' sheaths, suplimented in many cases (although not in the Ristissen example) by the use of coloured enamels and silver. Enamel inlay would look very strange in this case and I do not think it would be in line with the way the Romans would have done it.

Brass wire of a suitable gauge should be easy to obtain and it will be surprisingly easy to inlay into the sheath once you have done a small amount of practice.

The trenches you have cut with the dremel are good so far but will need a bit more work before you can inlay anything into them. The rotary impressions will not hold metal well. You will need to go over your trenches with a small chisel or a punch to give the trenches a more even base and to undercut them slightly. There is a good tutorial by Matt Lukes on how to do this here:
<!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16876&hilit=wire+inlay">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16876&hilit=wire+inlay<!-- l

You also need to either put a rivet through the centre of the terminal expansion or otherwise emboss the centre or attach something to make it look as if it is embossed, as the terminal expansion would seem always to have had a rivet in this position, or rarely, embossing to immitate the rivet which would normally be there.

Also, what have you used for the organic layers between the tang of the dagger and the outer grip plates?


Secondly, to Brian:

The method you show in your illustration is good for producing the sunken midrib of a type 'B' blade but the blade Xavier is copying is a type 'A' blade, where the midrib would be more upstanding and would not feature grooves.

Also, regarding tangs, some rod (type 'B') tangs were definately peened over, as the example from Kingsholm shows. The tang of the Titelberg dagger is not a rod tang incidentally. It is a short type 'A' (frame) tang. Although most people expect frame tangs to continue up to the pommel expansion, shortened tangs such as is featured on the Titelberg dagger are quite a common subtype.

The tang of the dagger posted up by Peronis is indeed shortened and has either broken off or the missing portion lost to rust. Many surviving rod tags are in this condition. Incidentally the idea that they could not have held a handle with metal grip plates is disproved by the Usk 1 sheath, which has a rod tang and still retains its handle. There are no rivet holes in the shoulders of the blade but the handle is definitely a normal handle with iron grip plates.

Crispvs

[Lucius Petilius Remo]

thank you crispus!!! I am going to make inlaying in brass. I am going to add rivets to the knob.Once ended, I shall show you the photographs of my pugio. :wink: Thanks to all for the interest which you all carry at my work!!!!!

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs. The method I show in the drawing for creating a central midrib is not for a sunken one at all, it is for a raised type and the drawing was shown to try to explain to others who have never achieved a midrib just how to begin to do it.
I have to say however that I have not shown the rest of the metal that would need to have been removed to show this, the raised central rib would have been the first part of the blade that Roman craftsmen would have done then forged down the rest of the blade.
It is where they would have begun with 5 or 6 mm thick iron and finished up with some thing as this.

http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... a/vel2.jpg