my pugio of Risstissen

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs. I think we may be at cross purpose in regard to dagger handles where I was trying to point out that where only a dagger blade had been found, there would not have been handle plates or these would have also have been found with the blade regardless of what the tang may or may not have been.
Then what I was trying to point out with pictures of my dagger plates and my suggestion to Adrian about a hole going thro' a tang we find that with the Titelberg this is indeed the case, and also it has holes that go thro' the shoulders of the blade.
Then in my reply to Cesar as also I would like to point out to most re-enactors a pugio would not have had a solid steel or bronze handle, infact the information that I am trying to pass on to others is that a pugio would only have been in the region of 25% of a Kilo in weight as indeed are those that I produce.
Infact a Pugio handle can be produced totaly separate of a blade and may well have been done so in Roman times, for very much like Helmet production in those times there would have been helmet makers and then others who would have decorated them as also with daggers,swords, and many other things for the Roman Fabrica worked in this manner.

[Crispvs]

Thanks for your reply Brian.

Thanks for your explanation. Yes, it makes much more sense to me now and I value your technical expertise.

You may be right about handles being made by craftsmen other than those who made the blades. It certainly seems to be an idea which flies well. Of course, we do not know enough to know and we may never know. We should, of course, bear in mind the Oberammergau dagger, which featured the inscription 'C.ANTONIVS FECIT' on the handle. This would seem to suggest that Gaius Antonius made the whole piece, as you rightly point out, the possibility also exists that Gaius Antonius may only have done the inlay work on the handle and sheath and that someone else might have carried out the other work (amongst other possibilities). I agree too, with you that the handles of most re-enactors' daggers are too heavy. I know of no evidence for brass or bronze grip plates during the first century AD and iron grip plates were either of the thin, embossed type or solid but relatively thin at the guard and pommel expansions, whereas most reproductions are too thich at the guard and pommel expansion.

I am less comfortable with the suggestion that blades found without handles would not have featured iron grip plates. Many of the known pieces come from rubbish middens (such as those from Vindonissa) and so may have been discarded because without handles they were no longer funcional. Two daggers with replacement handles, one from London and one from Vindonissa, illustrate the fact that daggers could and did lose their handles. Other daggers often come from watery contexts and may have been offered as sacrifices. In this case the possibility exists that they may have been deliberately put beyond use before being deposited, especially if they belonged to auxiliary soldiers. We should also consider the point that few items survive complete in any case. The Velson dagger is a case in point. It was almost certainly whole and in good condition when deposited. No grip plates survive, but then, no tang survives either. However, the bone / antler top plate, complete with its three decorative silver top rivets, did suvive, indicating that the handle was present when the burial took place. Over the time between the burial and its excavation the gravel in the well moved about quite a bit, but even fine seiving which revealed the top plate, the terminal expansion of the sheath and part of the sole of one of the soldier's boots revealed no trace of the tang or grip plates. This shows that there may be other forces at work in the preservation and destruction of items. Most of the iron sheath plate survived well but there were some portions which had completely corroded away. If the tang had been present the absence of the grip plates would lead us to a more definite conclusion that none had been present. However, the fact that the tang has totally disappeared when it must have been present at the time of deposition leaves open the possibility that grip plates, most probably of the thin embossed type, might also have been present and have also disappeared. In all probability the tang broke off at some time after deposition, taking the rest of the handle with it and ended up in contact with a corrosive substance (possibly nothing worse than water) which destroyed all but the top plate. The possibility remains that no iron grip plates may have existed but the absence of the tang casts that conclusion into doubt. The same might apply to many other daggers, particularly those with rod tangs. Blades which feature rod tangs also rarely feature rivet holes in the shoulders of the blade.

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

Xavier. I do hope that you will understand that both Crispvs and I are not taking away your subject here, it is just when a topic comes forward there are many who enjoy putting forward their experience and knowledge.
I do hope that my drawings and pictures of how I create these things will be of some help both to yourself and others, also along with the expertise of Crispvs who indeed makes very detailed study of this particular subject.

[Lucius Petilius Remo]

Yes drawings and experiments of all are going to be able to help me !!! thank you!!!!

[Marcus Mummius]

Xavier, for more information and nice pictures you can look at this thread: <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22164&hilit=auerberg">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22164&hilit=auerberg<!-- l

It shows the fantastic replica of the Auerberg pugio, made by Luc De Vos (Lucius Vulpes here on RAT).

Vale,
Jef

[Lucius Petilius Remo]

yes I saw his pugio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is superb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope to have a similar result as mine!!!!! :wink:

[PhilusEstilius]

Xavier. If you go back a few posts on this topic you will find the link I have given that shows how I achieve the midrib for my Velsen dagger, in the drawing I first put forward to show how to start the midrib I forgot to show the removal of the rest of the blade metal to complete that process.