Spartans in white? Surely not!

[PMBardunias]

Without asking one, I think it is reasonable to propose (Agiads and Eurypontids aside) that your average Spartan/Spartiate citizen at the time would have considered himself to be of one of the three Dorian sub-tribes (Hylleis, Pamphyloi, Dymanes) which also occured in other Dorian city-states - as part of his make-up.

Surely, but it is the notion of "pure" Dorian that I think is a modern one being transposed back on them. Spartans did not try to keep their genes pure- they had no problem accepting worthy Xenos, Mothakes, etc. Amyclae, with its special relationship to Sparta was clearly pre-dorian, with its cult of Hyacinthos.

Can they be Akhaians and Dorians at the same time??? That is truly baffling ...

Depends on how you slice them. I'm an american, which tells nothing of my biology- other than the fact that I consume too much saturated fat and eat genetically modified corn. I'm also a Spartan, or at least a Laconian, a Roman, from Lazio, or a Pole depending on which bloodline you care to follow. So it depends on whether your interest is in reconstructing where I came from and what genes make me up, or what language I speak and why I can't maintain an interest in soccer.

[Phalanx300]

Without asking one, I think it is reasonable to propose (Agiads and Eurypontids aside) that your average Spartan/Spartiate citizen at the time would have considered himself to be of one of the three Dorian sub-tribes (Hylleis, Pamphyloi, Dymanes) which also occured in other Dorian city-states - as part of his make-up.

Surely, but it is the notion of "pure" Dorian that I think is a modern one being transposed back on them. Spartans did not try to keep their genes pure- they had no problem accepting worthy Xenos, Mothakes, etc. Amyclae, with its special relationship to Sparta was clearly pre-dorian, with its cult of Hyacinthos.

Exactly, those worthy enough would have been granted citizenship. So Sparta definately wasn't a fully Dorian city, probably Dorian dominant but not as people always like to see it.

[PMBardunias]

As to modern Greece, I think the latest study on Greece and the balkans is: "Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe", European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 820 – 830. They show Greece as distinct from the Balkans, at least in terms od the male lineages. They also show variation within greece, with Greek Macedonians much more like Balkan populations. Because their "greek" sample was from Athens, they may have actually made the Greeks appear even closer to the Balkans than they are, since the peloponnese is probably even more different from what I have seen in other papers.

The important figure is below- basically how close the dots are on the chart reflects how close the populations are genetically for the major indicators.

[Polinik]

As to modern Greece, I think the latest study on Greece and the balkans is: "Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe", European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 820 – 830. They show Greece as distinct from the Balkans, at least in terms od the male lineages. They also show variation within greece, with Greek Macedonians much more like Balkan populations. Because their "greek" sample was from Athens, they may have actually made the Greeks appear even closer to the Balkans than they are, since the peloponnese is probably even more different from what I have seen in other papers.

The important figure is below- basically how close the dots are on the chart reflects how close the populations are genetically for the major indicators.

I must remark the attachment and its relevance, whoever did it:
-There is absolutely no difference between Bosnian Croat,Bosnian Serb,and Bosniac(term which is figured out in 1991 and does not genetically exist)..Other two terms "nations" derived also from Civil war of 1991-95 and are purely political and religious,matter of personal choice,not genetic.
-Croat from Osijek and Croats from Croatia??? Osijek is a town in Croatia by no means different than any others in Cro in terms of genetic,only closer to border with Serbia, that is not at all different genetically form Croatia?
-Speaking of Serbs(from Serbia?!), what is with the by far largest Balkan nation north of Thessaloniki???They are not even mentioned...???

I believe ancient Hellens were quite different from other Balkan nations.But after centuries of different invasions and mixing genes,today that genetic difference is certainly much less visible. You can easy spot an Anglo-saxon tourist in Thessaloniki for example,but when it comes to people from Skopje,Bulgarians,Romanians,Serbs,Croats or even Albanians etc it is much harder to distinct them from Hellens (at least at first sight, without looking at language or manners).

All best

[PMBardunias]

I must remark the attachment and its relevance, whoever did it:
-There is absolutely no difference between Bosnian Croat,Bosnian Serb,and Bosniac(term which is figured out in 1991 and does not genetically exist)..Other two terms "nations" derived also from Civil war of 1991-95 and are purely political and religious,matter of personal choice,not genetic.

Obviously it is genetic as well, since they show differences. It is as big a mistake to deny that a population is genetically different as it is to pretend that all the citizens are the same. It has nothing to do with lines drawn on a map on 1995, but with the historical genetic make up of the populations that migrated into the area. Much of this is simply due to the accidental ancestral genetic mix of those who migrated, which is a small sample of whatever original population they moved from. Thus two colonies froom the same population can look very different by simple chance of what small percentage of the homeland's genotypes they brought with them.

-Croat from Osijek and Croats from Croatia??? Osijek is a town in Croatia by no means different than any others in Cro in terms of genetic,only closer to border with Serbia, that is not at all different genetically form Croatia?

My guess is that they had prior knowledge from previous studies that this population was genetically distinct. Again you have to discard the notion that a country is made up of a block of people who would all cluster together on a graph like this- few do. Much this depends on the goal of the study and what you compare them to. Note though, that both the bosnian and Osijek Croats are deep into the cluster with the Northern Slavs, they actually appear to be further from the Serbs than the average Croat.

-Speaking of Serbs(from Serbia?!), what is with the by far largest Balkan nation north of Thessaloniki???They are not even mentioned...???

This often happens in studies like this, they may not have had Serbian samples.

[Polinik]

I'll have to agree with you,Paul. Most of your post at least..

We will leave Slavs to another topic...

All best

[PMBardunias]

I'll have to agree with you,Paul. Most of your post at least..
We will leave Slavs to another topic...

If you are interested in some of the latest papers on this and on Slavic populations, just send me an email.