Spartans in white? Surely not!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Whilst I accept the logic of your argument, I also think you have to at least tacitly accept that such an authoritarian state as Sparta, which did condition its (male especially) citizens from quite an early age, into putting the state first and the individual last - might actually be hankering after some kind of uniformity. Uniformity of purpose, action and belief. It would therefore follow that some kind of uniformity would appear in their martial appearance, and indeed there are plenty of historic references to suggest this.

Sparta seems to have been the most powerful of a number of states with similar constitution,and this would explain why she attracted the interest of many historians,than say for example Cretan states. Still,it appears that Sparta,like pretty much every other greek state of the time had no bureucracy. In fact,even if Athens seems to have some primitive bureucracy (perhaps due to the greater size and complications of an early democracy) Sparta seems to work mostly traditionally. These are not clues of an authoritarian state that "requires" uniformity. Now it seems that full citizens were "obliged" to educate their children in a particular manner. I would make two points: One,that perhaps *tradition* or fashion made a minority of say Athenian citizens to educate their children in a quite uniform manner, similarly in Sparta this minority (that most probably composed only a minority of the Spartan phalanx,too) has to mean that Sparta required uniform appearence. It doesn't make sense to me. Two, today in most western countries uniform education is obligatory(usually to the age of 16 or so) but this doesn't seem either authoritarian,nor does it require uniformity in the appearence of citizens. And yes,the example may be a bit exagerated,but the point is that there is no clear evidence that Sparta as a state asked and even better could oblige uniformity in any way but one: It offered one crimson cloak to each male full citizen after the age of 20.

Uniformity of purpose, action and belief

These appear universal for any greek state in time of war. But what was the common purpose,action and belief in all Spartans otherwise? Like all other "common" states,democratic or oligarchic, in Sparta too there have been big debates even in matters of war. Debates between parties of citizens and between indviduals.

Given that the state armed and uniformed its troops, then it would make more simple common sense to mass-produce cheaply wherever possibly the articles necessary

Who said that the state armed and uniformed its citizens? As i said,the only clue of uniformity is a scarlet cloak.Something that likely other states could also provide to their own elite troops. No other uniformity can be seen to the spartan statuettes of the same era,not even helmet type or shield emblem
At some point around 425bc Sparta seems to have equiped helots. At least to make the hoplites under Brasidas they had to privide them with shields. Bear in mind that while under Brasidas,these helots were still property of the state,hence the Lamda on their shields,to both show that these shields belong to the state of Sparta and not to individuals,and also that those who bear them belong to Sparta. Actually there have been other intances that other states privided armour to their citizens.
As for feminine colours not being used, there is some evidence that Athenians considered yellow as a colour for women(I think it's Aristophanes who puts an Athenian politician running in the street naked,covered only with the yellow himation ,implying that it belonged to the woman in whose house he was spending the night). Yet,the Aristion stele shows an Athenian hoplite with a linothorax that was painted yellow.
So i really don't see why Spartans should look uniform in any way other than wearing a red cloak when not fighting as a symbol of their citizenship, and also don't find evidence of them needing to paint their -commonly white- t & y in any particular colour because white might have looked feminine. These are very distinctive characteristics that despite all of the other details,no ancient author ever suggested about Spartans.
A Spartan soldier wouldn't have looked much different than many other greek hoplites. He might have had long hair,even if this is a common characteristic in all archaic soldier ideals and even if the bust of Lysandros doesn't show him with that long hair,and the bust of Pausanias actually shows him with short hair! They both have beards, like Pericles, Miltiades and Themistocles. The percentage of full spartan citizens with a bronze covered shield might have been higher than that of other states,since presumably they invested more on military equipment,but this in no way means that in the entire Lakedaimonian phalanx the bronze faced shields were that many. And finally, the Spartan soldier might have been wearing a crimson cloak that may or may not have discarded when in battle,but once again this doesn't mean that the entire Lakedaimonian phalanx would wear them. It is most likely that Spartan citizens fought side by side with the Perioikoi in most of the times.
Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Each Spartan regiment/Mora had its own seperate emblem. This is already a show of uniformity. They were also reknown for their crimson red cloaks. And I've also read that the Spartan had red Chitons as uniformity, that they were known for that.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ok,show proof for any of those statements other than the red cloaks. Who can prove that each mora had its own emblem? It is speculation and by no means should we all accept it. One might believe on it or not,but there is no real evidence. Not to mention that even those who support the idea that each mora had its own emblem (something that no ancient author ever specifies) do not believe that all shields in the composition of a mora would look the same. Especially on an early date such as 500bc.
And wherever you have read that their chitons were also red, you have to search for their sources,because the only word used is "stola" which usually it seems translates as cloak,rather than uniform.
So as i said,caution! What we actually KNOW about the appearence of Spartan hoplites shows no difference of what we know about any other hoplite anywhere in Greece. What we know is that elite troops form all cities may or may not have had something traditionally distinctive,that in no way made them uniform. Argive white shields is an example. Sikyonian "?" on their shields is another one. There is nothing that suggests that Sparta required more uniformity from their elites than any other city. And remember,the Spartans were still the minority in the entire Lakedaimonian army.
Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

I'm more a fan of Sparta in her glorytime when their numbers were 8000-9000 when they sere still a big part of the Lakonian army and where it wasn't weird to see a Spartan army. :mrgreen:

I'm not saying each Spartan had the same emblem in each Mora, I believe what Stefanos said that they would be allowed to customise their shield as long as the original emblem remained.

And when looking at a lot of vases portraying Spartans I also notice repeating emblems of symbols recognized as Mora emblems.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

King Archidamus of Sparta,refering to the battle of Thermopylae to the Spartan Apella mentions the 300 brave men in Thyraea against the Argives(saying that they won,which is not entirely true) and the brave *1000* of Thermopylae,with no distinction of the 300 "chosen" ones. This means that the Lakedaimonians who fought all together as one phalanx were 1000 and that the Spartans who fought with them were less than 1/3 of them. The Apella was for Spartan citizens only so the mentions of the whole 1000 would mean either that there were sent 700 more Spartan citizens(something that would have been specified by some historian) or that the rest of them were the usual Lakedaemonian perioikoi,that however couldn't be distinguished from the 300 Spartans since they fought all together. The misunderstanding comes because of the special mention of Herodotus to the way the 300 were chosen. The Spartan phalanx consisted of 1000 men. This,you should note, is the time of which you are a "fan" of Sparta.

Many of the emblems of the supposed "morae" with "slight variations" or not appear everywhere universally for greek hoplites. And of many different eras,i should note.

And please give me even SOME of the many vases you have seen depicting Spartans,because they must have escaped my attention. There are very few from Laconia, predating the new system of the morae actually,and i can remember one of them has a gorgoneion on his shield. If then a gorgoneion was a symbol of the time when the morae were not yet formed,why then should it be one of the morae symbols? And this is just one example.

Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Another explaination is that the Periokoi who fought there gained citizenship, it would be weird for them to be praising Periokoi otherwise.

You should contact Stefanos, he is the main researcher on the Mora symbols from what I've got from things.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The ancient authors always speak of Lakedaemonian phalanx,a term that includes both Spartans and Perioikoi. It wouldn't be weird at all to be praising Perioikoi,if mixed with them there were also Spartans(who could even be fighting in the front ranks but this is just speculative). Don't forget that the Perioikoi belonged to the state of Lakedaemona and they were free people and hoplites who owned their own arms. Yet,they were lead by Sparta and we never hear of an army of Perioikoi. We hear of a Lakedaemonian army. This could incude a big,a small or zero number of Spartan citizens. In Sphacteria the number of hoplites is given as a whole and only in one point it is specified that only about half of them were Spartan citizens. No other mention what were the rest. Obviously perioikoi who fought as a unit with them.
It all makes sense,if the perioikoi,few or many, have always been counted in the Spartan army. And they were obviously considered good fighters,worthy of their leaders.

Stefanos is doing a research and obviously believes in a theory about shield emblems. I am sceptical on his theory, but even if he believes in it and presents clues -often very interesting ones- i don't think he can come up with actual proof for it. So what i'm doing here is saying that there is not any proof for uniformity on Spartan hoplites (especially on the time you are a fan of) and that many other studies and speculative opinions on Spartan hoplites are a result for this mistaken preconception that the state of Sparta required them to look uniform for the one or the other reason.
I too was a believer of the red cloaks in battle once,and actually i still believe that hoplites could fight with a short chalmys, and have actually debated and supported it much in the past, but now for the one or the other reason (not because i believe a cloak was disturbance in fighting) i think that the crimson cloak was not a chlamys and that it was their symbol of citizenship in the place they spent most of their time: out of armour.
Khaire
Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

King Archidamus of Sparta,refering to the battle of Thermopylae to the Spartan Apella mentions ... the brave *1000* of Thermopylae, with no distinction of the 300 "chosen" ones. This means that the Lakedaimonians who fought all together as one phalanx were 1000 and that the Spartans who fought with them were less than 1/3 of them...

Or perhaps, more obviously, he was just paying the (700) Thespians their due - in addition to the Spartans (300) - the fallen amounting to 1000. More likely I suspect ...

[Ghostmojo]

The ancient authors always speak of Lakedaemonian phalanx, a term that includes both Spartans and Perioikoi...

The term Lakedaimonian (or Lacedaemonian) is used interchangably with Spartan in ancient texts; sometimes with specificity and some times without. It is true the Spartans controlled all Lakonia, Messenia and some fringes of Arkadia and Argolis - Lakonia being their native region (or country). Lakedaimon is sometimes taken to mean all of this large area - sometimes just Lakonia and sometimes Sparta. I favour the other explanation which is Lakedaimon is a broad area around the Eurotas valley in which the Spartans lived (including the city of Sparta and nearby Amyklai and surrounding territory).

In any event Lakedaimonian troops included a wide strata of 'Spartan' society including as Giannis points out the Perioikoi. The Spartans themselves were in later times (and perhaps as early as the mid 5thC) already composed of full-blown Spartiates (homoioi); Hypomeoines ('inferiors' - loss of equal mess status like Kinadon); Mothakes (foster or bastard half-Spartiate offspring like Lysander and Gylippos); Trophimoi Xenoi (Spartan-raised foreigners like Xenophon's sons); Perioikoi (freeborn Lakonian dwellers-around); and Neodamodeis (new citizens - enfranchised helots).

The term is therefore a very useful catch-all phrase enabling the Spartans to cleverly conceal the peculiar strata of their society, into one seemingly homogeneous whole.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The term is therefore a very useful catch-all phrase enabling the Spartans to cleverly conceal the peculiar strata of their society, into one seemingly homogeneous whole.

Indeed! However,this whole was not homogenous in status,and thus could not be homogenous in look,so since they fought all together,their battle line as the army of Sparta would not be homogenous either.

As for the number of the 300+700 Thespians,it can't be so,since the speech of Archidamos is concerning how the Spartans ways are and how the Spartans have acted before,thus how they should always act.

And by the way,which is that reference for Spartans considering white as feminine? White is a rather inconvenient colour to be avoided
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

The ancient authors always speak of Lakedaemonian phalanx,a term that includes both Spartans and Perioikoi. It wouldn't be weird at all to be praising Perioikoi,if mixed with them there were also Spartans(who could even be fighting in the front ranks but this is just speculative).

Exactly how the Spartan and non-spartan elements of the phalanx were integrated should be one of the most important issues for understanding the later Spartan army, and yet I have not seen all that much discussion of the topic. For example, if the Spartiates were a cutting edge a few ranks deep, did they deploy from mixed enomotia? This could be problematic if there was a close connection between enomotia and syssitia. Or did they deploy in stages in two shallow phalanxes, say one 4 ranks of Spartiates and the other 8 ranks of periokoi, one behind the other. Perhaps it was more complicated, with Spartiates filling ranks 1, 2 and the rear rank. Perhaps the Spartiates were not in front at all to conserve Spartiate lives. If anyone has references to good discussions let me know.

[Phalanx300]

King Archidamus of Sparta,refering to the battle of Thermopylae to the Spartan Apella mentions ... the brave *1000* of Thermopylae, with no distinction of the 300 "chosen" ones. This means that the Lakedaimonians who fought all together as one phalanx were 1000 and that the Spartans who fought with them were less than 1/3 of them...

Or perhaps, more obviously, he was just paying the (700) Thespians their due - in addition to the Spartans (300) - the fallen amounting to 1000. More likely I suspect ...

Ofcourse, that does make more sense then the Periokoi theories. After Thermopylae Sparta also had good relationships with the Thespians, I´m pretty sure the appreciated the Thespians using what probably was their entire Hoplite force at Thermopylae.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ofcourse, that does make more sense then the Periokoi theories. After Thermopylae Sparta also had good relationships with the Thespians, I´m pretty sure the appreciated the Thespians using what probably was their entire Hoplite force at Thermopylae.

I have explained why i really don't think in this case Archidamus is refering to the Thespians.

Paul,it's really a mystery how they deployed. It could even be that all the Spartans were to the right flank and all the perioikoi in the left. Because what concerns me is that the perioikoi should be practicing with the spartans in order to do such maneuvers...It is a fact though that in any case the perioikoi are counted in the numbers of the Lakedaemonian phalanx and not in the allied Peloponnesians,as the numberes of these are usually given by state.
Khairete
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Well the Periokoi were a part of the Spartan Mora so I gues they would get more training then your average citizen-soldier though I don't think they would be mixed.

And on the Thespian thing, if they were praising Spartans at a place with only Spartans and was refering to Thermopylae then in my eyes its more likely they talked about the Thespians as well who heroicly died with the Spartans.

[PMBardunias]

And on the Thespian thing, if they were praising Spartans at a place with only Spartans and was refering to Thermopylae then in my eyes its more likely they talked about the Thespians as well who heroicly died with the Spartans.

The answer to the question, "how best to use your elite troops?," has ramifications for many of the questions we ask on here. For example, if spear-fencing, involving only the first few ranks, was the primary arbiter of battle, they I think a case could be made for backing a few ranks of Spartiates with further ranks of periokoi for moral support. If the mass coordination of deep ranks is required, then it might be best to have smaller units of many ranks of Spartiates to ensure local victory. I don't think we know anything about Sparta, but we are told that the 300 of the Theban sacred band originally were used along a broad, shallow front with other troops behind. Then just prior to their period of greatness, they are grouped together into a single unit. I have wondered if this shift is evidence for a shift in how they fought their battles. That said, there are of course other benefits to having a single autonomous elite unit- such as in flanking maneuvers.