Christie`s late roman helmet - any info?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That could be well what it is Jyrki,!
But then I can't imagine a helmet more suited to that campaign than the Deir-el-Medineh!

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:

Here's the thread in question: link from old RAT

No conclusions reached, not surprisingly!

I notice the helmet has now been 'dated' 4th-5th century though. Any good reason behind that, does anyone know? The general consensus here seemed to favour late 3rd/early 4th...

- Nathan

It has hinges to attach the cheek-guards.

According to Damien Glad (archeologist specialised in late roman and byzantine warfare, and also member of the Herculiani), who recently published a book on eastern roman defensive equipment, known helmets with hinges - from Der El Medineh and Leyde - dates back to the late 5th/early 6th century. Not to the late 3rd/early 4th century as thought before.

That would be why this helmet datation have been postponed aswell. However I don't recall what Damien said about that helmet, I will maybe ask him.

Damien Glad in his book does no talk about the " helmet of Christies " because the archaeological context is absent. On the other hand, he knows this helmet and does not doubt whether it is a helmet of the IVth century.

To this author, the helmet of Der El Medineh is not a helmet of the end of the IIIth - beginning of the IVth century. But hinges have nothing to do with his proposition of dating.

For him, the IIIe-IVe century datation is an error. The Helmet of Der El Medineh would be a helmet of the end of the Ve century - VIe century. The archaeological context of The Der El Medineh helmet being very bad and badly studied, it bases itself on his chrono-typology of the helmets of the IVe to IIXe century in the oriental médditeranean area. It is on the evolution of helmets and a very interesting study of the skullcaps of helmet that he advance his arguments.

For this archaeologist, it is not the helmet of Der El Medineh seen on the Galerius arch (from which ensues the error of dating of the helmet...) but another type of helmet which it exposes in its study.

Secondary consequence; That' why there are no Der El Medineh in Herculiani's group (and a sad consequence for Arbatio who had made a beautiful version...)

[Virilis]

Damien, in spite of all this I must say that it is clearly Deir-El-Medineh style helmets that are depicted on the arch of Galerius. There`s just so much likeness; the bowl, cheek pieces, nose guard and the ring on top of the helmet. Seldom is it possible to identify a roman helmet type so easily from sculptural evidence. Then again perhaps mr D`Amato would argue that we are both wrong: the helmets are made of leather :wink: ...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Any pictures of the Arch image Virilis?
I don't believe I've seen it myself!

[Virilis]

Any pictures of the Arch image Virilis?
I don't believe I've seen it myself!

Byron, check this out for example:

http://dspace.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885 ... CN8615.JPG

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Damien Glad Think that the Arch of Galerius helmet understand like Der El Medineh model is an error of interpretation to anterior archeologist. In fact, the depiction show not very good an Der El Mediheh Helmet. The top of helmet let see a ring. But this ring can be an Sommital knob. The neck guard not a solid check piece but simply a chain mail. The pieces details to The Galerius arch helmet can be see like an lamellar helmet Knew to the same period (Kispeck is cited). That the position of the author.

To the Der El Medineh Helmet, Damien Glad say that The helmet is to closer to Sing and to Vid III wich allow a dating Vth-VIth century. Possible parallel with "set square rights" helmets (les casques à équerre droites) like Kerch/Mesoband and Narona/Bretzenheim type.

Here the personnal answer to Damien Glad:

"In the book I specify that the helmet of Deir el Medineh is archéologicaly very badly dated, it results from no serious context. I also say, that effectively the iconography lets suppose the existence of this type of helmet, but others archaeological discoveries better close to the Der El Medineh type are dated from the VIh century. As for me, I give in favour of no dating, although I have my idea on the question. In the book I am only evoking the various datings proposed by the archaeologists in particular by S. James and I replace the archaeological material in its context. I do not give exactly a dating for the deir el medineh because of an inferior archaeological context"

[Virilis]

Thanks for the info Damien !

Maybe it is a coincident but to me those helmets in the arch of Galerius really look like the Deir-El-Medineh helmet desite the artistic license / archaisms usually connected to the roman sculptures...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, to be hones Virilis, I was really hoping to agree with you here, but I can't honestly say I can, despite trying to stretch my very
malable imagination......I have to say it is too inconclusive to be sure there........

[Virilis]

Well, to be hones Virilis, I was really hoping to agree with you here, but I can't honestly say I can, despite trying to stretch my very
malable imagination......I have to say it is too inconclusive to be sure there........

Fair enough, Byron :wink: ! If you happen to have Osprey`s "Late Roman Infantryman & Cavalryman" there are some good pics of the relief which are a bit more detailed (although the books are otherwise badly outdated). Anyhow I can`t think of any other late roman helmet finds which resembles the helmets depicted on the arch of Galerius...

[Robert Vermaat]

As I read in the answerof Damien Glad, he does not try to put a date the Deir el Medinah at all:

As for me, I give in favour of no dating, although I have my idea on the question.

, although he favours a later dating because of 6th-century examples that look like it.

As I understand it, that does not mean that there are directly comparable pieces like the Deir el Medinah available?

The Narona helmet(s), quoted as a parallel type, has been dated to both the 4th as well as the 8th century, so that may not be exactly helpful...

I must say that I agree with Jyrki about the seeming parallel between the Deir el Medinah helmet and the helmets seen on the Arch of Galerius. They of course can never be said to be exactly similar (the details are not clear enough), but it does provide an earliest occurrance of the type.

On the other hand, helmet types did not change every decade. A Berkasovo type helmet could stick around for a century, and the Imperial Gallic types are closely related and existed for several centuries.
That would make it possible for a Deir el Medinah type helmet to appear on the Arch of Galerius and still be around during the 5th century or later.

Personally, I would see no reason whatsoever for poor Arbatio not to wear his beautiful helmet!