The Centurion and his horse questions.

[D B Campbell]

I haven't encountered any mention of the centurions doing anything but marching alongside the regulars.

Actually, all you've encountered is references to centurions "travelling" alongside the regulars. If we knew that they "marched", we wouldn't be having this discussion.

when the situation required a centurion to be mounted, then he was.

Ah, but how do you define situations that "required" him to be mounted? wink:

[Magnus]

I haven't encountered any mention of the centurions doing anything but marching alongside the regulars.

Actually, all you've encountered is references to centurions "travelling" alongside the regulars. If we knew that they "marched", we wouldn't be having this discussion.

when the situation required a centurion to be mounted, then he was.

Ah, but how do you define situations that "required" him to be mounted? wink:

Have you ever seen evidence regarding the upkeep of an additional number of horses for a legion, specific to the centurionate? I haven't, just the cavalry. Also, when is the last time you actually saw a centurion mounted in the historical record. I find it odd that were they mounted, there really is no reference for it. Of course, absence of evidence and all that, but if horses were that much of an important part to the roles of the centurionate, why is there no reference to it? Contemporary writers do so with the assumption that their audience will already have knowledge of the subject. If mounted centurions were a special matter, why isn't there mention of it? There are references to a centurion's armour and medals, equally important in terms of status, but not horses. The assumption then at this point should be that they were on foot.

I define situations that would require a centurion to be mounted entirely based on time and speed. Specifically, any type of recon of a given area for a camp, or possibly an ambush that was time sensitive. I believe one of the ancient's quotes above related to this (I think John posted it).

I also don't think your band of brothers reference stands...I work with "old timers" in their 40's and 50's that can run rings around us younger bucks. Look at Randy Couture of the UFC for example. Pushing 50 years old, and still fighting in mixed martial arts at light heavyweight and heavyweight.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Perhaps it was something they took for granted the contemporary readers knew , and it was of such mainstream
banality, they didn't think it was special enough to make mention of on the whole?

[Magnus]

Maybe, but my vote Byron is the opposite. I think the common knowledge would be that since they are part of the infantry, that they'd be on foot. Having the privelage and status of utilizing and owning a horse I think would crop up more, if it were that widespread or mainstream.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Darned, I hate it when people disagree with me!! :lol:

Could well be. I just recall the mention of people being appointed to centurionate from wealthy families
And most of them were of equestrian status(wealthy families). But untill I can find where I read it in the first place I can't really
argue it too strongly, as it was just as possible they were from wealthy merchant classes too.
Me, I would want a horse. Basically, I don't think it can be equated as a sign of weakness, as it is difficult to ride a horse well, and be weak....more as a way of allowing the centurions greater flexibility in performing their function as commander of a century, and also as the seasoned advisors to the Legate they were supposed to be! Ahh juss dinna ken, min!

[Magnus]

Definately not weakness...and who's going to argue with you when you can beat them with a stick anyway? :lol:

But that's a lot more supplies the army now has to carry just so they can be mounted, and I don't recall any mention of the centurion's slaves caring for his horses...

[jkaler48]

Here is something interesting from a Vindolanda tablet of a possible merchant's accounting:

[[pretio caballi []] [[for the price of a horse ...]]
[[Exomnius (centurio) (denarios) []] [[Exomnius the centurion, denarii ...]]

So Exomnius the Centurion probably bought a horse! Of course another Centurion named Felicio bought 45 pounds of bacon so Exomnius may have eaten the horse instead of riding it. :twisted:

[Magnus]

LOL...there u go!

[Iosephus]

just some more thoughts to think about:

- having a horse is very practical if you have to supervise a loooong infantry marching column (even if you are responsible for only a fraction of it)
- according to my understanting centurions were rich enough to have own horses (instead of "issued" from the army)
- just as they were rich enough to have one or more slaves with them (again private property) during campaigns/marches for making uncomfortable things for them (eg. setting up the boss' tent, cooking, washing, polishing armour, tending the horses, etc)

again, no proof, only speculating

[jkaler48]

Yes speculating is OK when discussing this kind of unproven theory. One of the applications of this type of information is in reenactment. Most of us will agree that presenting a reenactment impression should avoid speculative information when at all possible. In this case given the shortage of mounts in the roman reenactment community one probably should not consider mounting a Centurion unless all others that were known to be mounted ( Cavalry, higher ranking officers etc ) were accommodated first. Even then it would probably
be a good idea to explain that this particular Centurion is riding because he is a Senior Centurion, Camp perfect, injured or other known reason and that it was not known whether all Centurions would have a horse on the march.

[Caius Fabius]

Yes speculating is OK when discussing this kind of unproven theory. One of the applications of this type of information is in reenactment. Most of us will agree that presenting a reenactment impression should avoid speculative information when at all possible. In this case given the shortage of mounts in the roman reenactment community one probably should not consider mounting a Centurion unless all others that were known to be mounted ( Cavalry, higher ranking officers etc ) were accommodated first. Even then it would probably
be a good idea to explain that this particular Centurion is riding because he is a Senior Centurion, Camp perfect, injured or other known reason and that it was not known whether all Centurions would have a horse on the march.

I would say "Horse apples" :lol: !
If you have a centurion inpression and a horse, mount him up, you have historical proof in records. Centurions, especially of the cohort command and first cohort were known to be wealthy men. Of course, it would help if the centurion also has a couple of slaves, a mule, or a oxcart with his gear and at least 40+ miles marching around. I mean, how often in real life did a centurion run around with 4-6 men under his command? If you want to be realistic, the horse is easier to explain than the lack of warm bodies in formation.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Haha! So true. Sometimes it´s like "5 chieftains and one Indian"

[jvrjenivs]

I totally second that. Although it would be interesting to have a mounted first spear, that wouldn't be logical if that group of soldiers behind him is to small. Same goes for the display of his personal slaves. 40 soldiers instead of 10 improves the general picture much more than adding that horse. And if you want to use a horse for re-enactment, show either auxilia cavalry or scouts. Don't bother to mount your centurion, who probably never would have commited to command a detachment of only 1 or 2 tentparties. This would be the optios job, I think.

[jkaler48]

Here is another example of a Centurion who is mounted for a special detail:
Flavius Arrianus Acies contra Alanos
"Behind them the German cavalrymen, these too in two divisions, and a centurion should command them, the one in charge of the camp."
Since he is probably the Camp Perfect he may have been chosen for this duty in part because he was already mounted by reason of his senior position.

And these Centurions were probably also mounted:
"The picked cavalrymen should be with Xenophoon himself, and two hundred infantrymen from the legion, the bodyguards, and the centurions attached to the picked cavalrymen and the commanders of the bodyguards and the decurions of the elite soldiers."

[jkaler48]

Having just watched again some of the first season of "ROME" the Centurion attached to some cavalry and therefore mounted for the mission reminded me to revist this topic ans see if anyone had turned up any new information in the last two years. Anyone?