The Centurion and his horse questions.

[D B Campbell]

Sounds like a real stretch theory to me- the use of greaves suggest Centuriones rode? One really has to beware of books making statements that sound like fact but are actually simply one of countless theories

To be fair to John, he was quoting from memory. For the record, the statement made by Graham Webster in his booklet on The Roman Army (Grosvenor Museum,Chester: 1973) is quite the opposite. What he wrote was: "Centurions, who were mounted on the march, wore decorated bronze greaves over their shins" (p. 27). He had already made up his mind that centurions rode horses on the march. It wasn't the greaves that proved it.

Centuriones didn't necessarily ride- surely some at least did if they had a horse, but that's as far as one could say without proper evidence.

So, did they have horses, or didn't they?

I don't think that horse is depicted because he liked riding for pleasure. It's more a sign of wealthy status, I think.

Quite so. And centurions were certainly wealthy individuals who aspired to equestrian status.

I'd be tempted to say that the bottom panel signifies his service as a cavalryman, while the top two panels (especially the right hand panel, with greaves and what I think is a centurion's helmet), signify the latter part of his career.

Hmmm ... I disagree, Tom. I think all of the iconography relates to Severus's final posting as a centurion. The clincher for me has always been the Epidaurus centurion's tombstone (see below), which I have only ever seen illustrated in Roy Davies' article on "Police Work in Roman Times", History Today 18 (1968), p. 707.[attachment=0:26ls04dr]<!-- ia0 RomanCenturion_Epidaurus.GIF<!-- ia0 [/attachment:26ls04dr]
Maybe this, and the Severus tombstone, was what convinced Graham Webster that the centurions rode on the march. But it is interesting to note that, in Arrian's order of march, the centurions do not accompany their centuries, but "march" with the tribunes, who were most definitely mounted (Arrian, Ectaxis 5-6).

[Magnus]

I don't think a few steles showing a centurion with a horse is indicative of anything beyond the fact that he simply has a horse. I think Mr. Webster may have been stretching things a bit by coming to the conclusion that they rode on the march. It also seems odd (not that I'm arguing with Arrian) that centurions would be that far away from their troops while on the march...optionnes or not.

[D B Campbell]

I don't think a few steles showing a centurion with a horse is indicative of anything beyond the fact that he simply has a horse.

So ... a pet of some kind?! :roll: Or maybe he only uses it for playing polo?

[jkaler48]

Also it is interesting (from a modern perspective) to consider that the evocati (recalled or retained time-served veterans) who failed to get promoted to Centurion (or haven't yet been)
are riding while the higher ranking Centurions would be walking on the march. This has turned out to be an interesting discussion of a topic that apparently isn't well known yet.

[jkaler48]

On the general point, I seem to remember Caesar (B.G. 7.65) taking horses from his military tribunes, the other Romans of equestrian rank, and his euocati (recalled or retained time-served veterans) to give to his German mercenaries, whose own horses weren't good enough. The fact that he doesn't mention centurions here might be significant (if only for the late Republic).

blue skies

Tom

One translation says: "On their arrival, as they were mounted on unserviceable horses, he takes horses from the military tribunes and the rest, nay, even from the Roman knights and veterans, and distributes them among the Germans."
Now whether the "rest" includes Centurions I don't know. What other officers that were known to be mounted might have the "Rest" have included?

[Magnus]

I don't think a few steles showing a centurion with a horse is indicative of anything beyond the fact that he simply has a horse.

So ... a pet of some kind?! :roll: Or maybe he only uses it for playing polo?

Are you saying then that it MUST have been for when he was on the march? :roll:

If you want to stick your neck out onto the chopping block and state that 2 steles are enough to prove an idea, beyond a reasonable doubt, fill your boots. I'll reserve judgement.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, if they were called to the generals presence, think how long it would take to get all the centurions to him for orders, if they had to walk.
then walk all the way back to convey the orders to their units?

[Magnus]

It probably took as long as it needed to...rememeber, they probably weren't as much of an "on-demand" society that we are.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, we're talking a cople of K's one way at least......long time to muster the officers for a staff meeting, especially when the enemy is baying across the valley.

[PhilusEstilius]

I do begin to wonder if the picture posted by Duncan is a Centurian for this particular guy is wearing the cingulum militaria around his chest as in Tribune style and of course he has a horse.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Good spot Brian. Unless he was one of those Imperial appointee centurions?

[popularis]

On the general point, I seem to remember Caesar (B.G. 7.65) taking horses from his military tribunes, the other Romans of equestrian rank, and his euocati (recalled or retained time-served veterans) to give to his German mercenaries, whose own horses weren't good enough. The fact that he doesn't mention centurions here might be significant (if only for the late Republic).

One translation says: "On their arrival, as they were mounted on unserviceable horses, he takes horses from the military tribunes and the rest, nay, even from the Roman knights and veterans, and distributes them among the Germans."
Now whether the "rest" includes Centurions I don't know. What other officers that were known to be mounted might have the "Rest" have included?

I'm not sure about that translation. The latin is: "Eorum aduentu, quod minus idoneis equis utebantur, a tribunis militum reliquisque equitibus Romanis atque euocatis equos sumit Germanisque distribuit." I would keep reliquisque with equitibus Romanis myself.

The "other Romans of equestrian rank" need not be officers (although some might have been prefects). Caesar's cohors included a large number of Roman equestrians - generally young members of the elite keen to get a bit of experience and cash (cf. Caesar B.G. 1.39). See also Plutarch, Cato min. 9.2, where the younger Cato (a military tribune) walked on the way to his camp, while his friends, and possibly also his two freedmen - all of whom were accompanying him on the campaign - rode.

The lack of a mention of centurions in the Caesar passage is rather curious (and remains so however one translates it). As you mention in an earlier post, it seems odd that veterans got to ride, while centurions (especially the primi ordines) walked.

I'd be tempted to say that the bottom panel signifies his service as a cavalryman, while the top two panels (especially the right hand panel, with greaves and what I think is a centurion's helmet), signify the latter part of his career.

Hmmm ... I disagree, Tom. I think all of the iconography relates to Severus's final posting as a centurion. The clincher for me has always been the Epidaurus centurion's tombstone (see below), which I have only ever seen illustrated in Roy Davies' article on "Police Work in Roman Times", History Today 18 (1968), p. 707.

As a said, I'm not an expert on iconography, especially that which doesn't relate to equestrians! My post was more directly concerned with the inscription than the iconography. Is there a good primer for general military iconography? There has to be something in German

blue skies

Tom

[jkaler48]

Well, if they were called to the generals presence, think how long it would take to get all the centurions to him for orders, if they had to walk.
then walk all the way back to convey the orders to their units?

One website has a Legion on the march occupaying 3726 Feet and the baggage train slightly less.
http://www.garyb.0catch.com/march3_comp ... nents.html
That assumes a standard width Roman road. If the Baggage train was spaced out
between cohorts for security and/ or narrower roads of trails it could mean some Centurions could be a couple of miles from the Legion command group. Of course less complex orders could have been relayed by Cornu calls or messenger and not require the Centurions to assemble for orders.

[Magnus]

Again, what "orders" are required while on the march? You're going to point B from point A. These orders would have been given out prior to leaving camp.

[jkaler48]

Again, what "orders" are required while on the march? You're going to point B from point A. These orders would have been given out prior to leaving camp.

Changes in orders might be required based on reports from scouts, changes of orders received from higher headquarters, unexpected enemy actions or contact etc. I can think of some pretty bad disasters in later period warfare that resulted when changes to orders were not possible or for some reason not received. I am not convinced that changes to orders
would necessarily require Centurions to either appear in person to receive those changes or to be mounted to order to do so. So I don't think that the orders argument can be offered as proof of mounted Centurions on the march absent other supporting evidence.