The Centurion and his horse questions.

[D B Campbell]

Ah, okay, I read equestrian as equestrian- the social rank- not as horseman. But even so my problem with the statement being relevant stands- it's still not meaning the average Centurio, right?

It's a poem, so it's never going to be straightforward. It's a poem about a man who takes up the post of the emperor's ab epistulis, and lists his duties (in poetical language). One of his duties is to announce "who will restrain the hundred, as an eques sent among the manipli". He's clearly talking about the appointment of centurions (in poetic language, "restraining the hundred" is obviously the task of a centurion). It seems to me that he is contrasting "mounted" (eques) with "foot" (manipli), but he may actually be referring to the centurion as an equestrian. Difficult. (And poetic.)

What references do you have for the 'many centurions came from the ranks of the equites singulares? I'm not familiar with that fact.

You're just setting me up to knock me back down again, aren't you?! :wink:
Pretty standard stuff, in the lore of appointments to the centurionate, but here goes: CIL 6, 31175 (dedication to a bewildering selection of deities worshipped by the equites, including their own personal genius, by a centurion of the VII Gemina, clearly on his promotion from the Horse Guard); ILS 2213 (dedication by a centurion of I Minervia, on his promotion from decurion of the Horse Guard); ILS 2417 (dedication by a centurion of IIII Flavia to "horsey" deities, mentioning a previous posting as trainer in the Horse Guard); ILS 4776 (dedication to the cavalry goddesses normally worshipped by the Horse Guard by a centurion of VII Gemina); ...

It seems reasonable that if >Clemens were seconded to a cavalry unit, he must have ridden- but the question is did a Centurio normally ride instead of march, and just because one could doesn't mean one did.

[Original reply deleted: polite reply follows]Do you promote a man to command 500 horsemen in wartime, when he doesn't own a horse and can't ride? Discuss.

[popularis]

Ah, okay, I read equestrian as equestrian- the social rank- not as horseman. But even so my problem with the statement being relevant stands- it's still not meaning the average Centurio, right?

It's a poem, so it's never going to be straightforward. It's a poem about a man who takes up the post of the emperor's ab epistulis, and lists his duties (in poetical language). One of his duties is to announce "who will restrain the hundred, as an eques sent among the manipli". He's clearly talking about the appointment of centurions (in poetic language, "restraining the hundred" is obviously the task of a centurion). It seems to me that he is contrasting "mounted" (eques) with "foot" (manipli), but he may actually be referring to the centurion as an equestrian. Difficult. (And poetic.)

I don't want to be confrontational, but I'm not so sure about that contrast. This passage is generally seen (at least in the study of junior officers) as describing the appointment of equestrian-ranked men to military positions by the ab epistulis. The full quote appears to suggest that the ab epistulis was (or could be) responsible for overseeing the appointment of equestrians to centurionate positions, and to the posts (in the order given in Statius) of praefectus cohortis, tribunus militum, and praefectus alae, that is, the normal equestrian junior officer posts (quis centum ualeat frenare, maniplos / inter missus eques, quis praecepisse cohorti / quem deceat clari praestantior ordo tribuni / quisnam frenigerae signum dare dignior alae).

This is, I'm pretty sure, the reading adopted by von Domaszewski ((1967) 122ff.), and I think it's followed by, among others, Devijver and Keppie. I don't think that the quote means that all centurions were equestrians, in either sense, but that some equestrian-ranked men were directly appointed to centurionate positions (there's some good stuff on this in Dobson, B. (1972), ‘Legionary Centurion or Equestrian Officer? A comparison of pay and prospects’, in Ancient Society 3 (1972) 193-207). Bear in mind that it possibly refers to relatively senior 'centurtionate' positions, some of which would be held by equestrians (? e.g. primipilus bis), or to centurionates within the Rome cohorts.

blue skies

Tom

[popularis]

It seems reasonable that if >Clemens were seconded to a cavalry unit, he must have ridden- but the question is did a Centurio normally ride instead of march, and just because one could doesn't mean one did.

[Original reply deleted: polite reply follows]Do you promote a man to command 500 horsemen in wartime, when he doesn't own a horse and can't ride? Discuss.

It's also not uncommon in the Triumviral period/early Principate for primipili to be promoted to cavalry prefectures, sometimes directly (e.g. P. Fannius M.f., CIL 5.3366 (Arusnates, Regio 10, Italia), M. Caesius Scaeua, CIL 10.6011 = CIL 1.1569 = ILS 2490 = ILLRP 498 (Minturnae, Regio 1, Italia); Caesar, B.C. 3.53.3-5; Valerius Maximus 3.2.23). It's hard to believe that they weren't experienced horsemen. Of course, primipili were not ordinary centurions. A thought occurs: if euocati commonly rode (I don't know any evidence for this beyond Caesar, but then it isn't my field) then wouldn't time-served centurions be entitled to the same privilege? Severus (see above) had spent over 30 years in the army.

blue skies

Tom

[jkaler48]

I am leaning toward interpreting the scant evidence(so far) in this way:
Centurions in some senior positions, sick or wounded centurions not able to march long distances and older time served veteran Centurions would be mounted on the march.
Other centurions not.

Of course I will certainly reevaluate this interpretation based on additional evidence and further discussion as so should we all..

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Personally, I go with the idea they would have. :wink:
What number of references to horses centurions do we require/have, to make an educated guess?
Has anyone who has studied the horse in warfare made a tally? Mr Snidell?

[Magnus]

John, I know you guys are working on an officer's "manual", but here's the problem with that. Why does that need to be done? There is scant evidence, as you say in determining whether or not the centurionate was mounted on the march...why do you feel you need to put it on paper? Best to leave it alone. It's not an integral part to any reenactor's impression, so why stretch it?

[D B Campbell]

I don't think that the quote means that all centurions were equestrians, ...

Quite so, Tom. Some were, some would be, and some died before they could be. :wink:

[PhilusEstilius]

I think we can say that Decurians ride horses and Centurians walked with their 80 men, I repeat walked for no way would anyone march left right left right over a 10 mile hike and this would allow the Centurian to beat the guys who fall behind.

Then as far as maybe the Scutum a Centurian would have this would be carried by his slave, for most would have a slave to do the cooking keep their accomadation clean and of course look after his kit ( maybe the slave had a Mule for most certainly a Centurian had a whole load of Gear to be carried )

I also still think the guy we see on that grave stelae is infact a Tribune and not a Centurian as somone has mistakenly stated.

[jkaler48]

John, I know you guys are working on an officer's "manual", but here's the problem with that. Why does that need to be done? There is scant evidence, as you say in determining whether or not the centurionate was mounted on the march...why do you feel you need to put it on paper? Best to leave it alone. It's not an integral part to any reenactor's impression, so why stretch it?

I think a REENACTMENT Officers manual written primarily by or with a large amount of input from experienced event and unit commanders might be useful. And I think a large part of the manual should be devoted to event organization issues like communicating with reenactors, other units, finding sites, ways to simulate things when they can't be done as done historically, how to stay current on new Archeological findings how to do research, funding and that sort of stuff rather than drill and commands which ought to be a separate issue.
I have suggested that an Officer's manual might be written but I am not qualified to write one and don't know if anyone has started on one yet.

[jkaler48]

In support of the theory that Centurions (or perhaps senior Centurions) might travel to consult with the Legion commander while on the march I found this from Book 3 Chapter 5
of Josephus

"6. This is the manner of the marching and resting of the Romans, as also these are the several sorts of weapons they use. But when they are to fight, they leave nothing without forecast, nor to be done off-hand, but counsel is ever first taken before any work is begun, and what hath been there resolved upon is put in execution presently; for which reason they seldom commit any errors; and if they have been mistaken at any time, they easily correct those mistakes. They also esteem any errors they commit upon taking counsel beforehand to be better than such rash success as is owing to fortune only; because such a fortuitous advantage tempts them to be inconsiderate, while consultation, though it may sometimes fail of success, hath this good in it, that it makes men more careful hereafter; but for the advantages that arise from chance, they are not owing to him that gains them; and as to what melancholy accidents happen unexpectedly, there is this comfort in them, that they had however taken the best consultations they could to prevent them. "

Of course it an assumption that Centurions are involved in counsel but they are the Commanders most experienced officers.

[M. Demetrius]

Of course it an assumption that Centurions are involved in counsel but they are the Commanders most experienced officers.

In Gallic Wars, Caesar mentions more than once about strategy meetings involving officers and centurions.

[jkaler48]

Of course it an assumption that Centurions are involved in counsel but they are the Commanders most experienced officers.

In Gallic Wars, Caesar mentions more than once about strategy meetings involving officers and centurions.

That's good input. Centurions or at least Senior Centurions, perhaps the cohort commanders, may well have consulted with the Legion commanders when necessary while on the march.
Of course while it may have been more difficult to do so if they were on foot rather than mounted it still doesn't amount to proof about the base question about Centurion's having been mounted on the march. The Legions may not have considered it as much of a difficulty as we might.

[Magnus]

In support of the theory that Centurions (or perhaps senior Centurions) might travel to consult with the Legion commander while on the march I found this from Book 3 Chapter 5
of Josephus

"6. This is the manner of the marching and resting of the Romans, as also these are the several sorts of weapons they use. But when they are to fight, they leave nothing without forecast, nor to be done off-hand, but counsel is ever first taken before any work is begun, and what hath been there resolved upon is put in execution presently; for which reason they seldom commit any errors; and if they have been mistaken at any time, they easily correct those mistakes. They also esteem any errors they commit upon taking counsel beforehand to be better than such rash success as is owing to fortune only; because such a fortuitous advantage tempts them to be inconsiderate, while consultation, though it may sometimes fail of success, hath this good in it, that it makes men more careful hereafter; but for the advantages that arise from chance, they are not owing to him that gains them; and as to what melancholy accidents happen unexpectedly, there is this comfort in them, that they had however taken the best consultations they could to prevent them. "

Of course it an assumption that Centurions are involved in counsel but they are the Commanders most experienced officers.

John, your quote doesn't say anything about Centurions meeting the Legate while on the march. Your quote simply states that before the Romans do anything, they plan it first. Indicating that it is prior to executing the action. Which means they would have a plan before going on the march, negating any requirement (save an emergency) to meet while on the move.

[jkaler48]

In support of the theory that Centurions (or perhaps senior Centurions) might travel to consult with the Legion commander while on the march I found this from Book 3 Chapter 5
of Josephus

"6. This is the manner of the marching and resting of the Romans, as also these are the several sorts of weapons they use. But when they are to fight, they leave nothing without forecast, nor to be done off-hand, but counsel is ever first taken before any work is begun, and what hath been there resolved upon is put in execution presently; for which reason they seldom commit any errors; and if they have been mistaken at any time, they easily correct those mistakes. They also esteem any errors they commit upon taking counsel beforehand to be better than such rash success as is owing to fortune only; because such a fortuitous advantage tempts them to be inconsiderate, while consultation, though it may sometimes fail of success, hath this good in it, that it makes men more careful hereafter; but for the advantages that arise from chance, they are not owing to him that gains them; and as to what melancholy accidents happen unexpectedly, there is this comfort in them, that they had however taken the best consultations they could to prevent them. "

Of course it an assumption that Centurions are involved in counsel but they are the Commanders most experienced officers.

John, your quote doesn't say anything about Centurions meeting the Legate while on the march. Your quote simply states that before the Romans do anything, they plan it first. Indicating that it is prior to executing the action. Which means they would have a plan before going on the march, negating any requirement (save an emergency) to meet while on the move.

Yes I wish I had that example that would go something like " The Legate of of the leading Legion having received a report from his scouts the the enemy was encountered in unexpected strength having blocked the way forward with trenches and wicker works called his senior centurions to counsel and they rode quickly to ....." but Varius never got to file his reports.

[D B Campbell]

Of course while it may have been more difficult to do so if they were on foot rather than mounted it still doesn't amount to proof about the base question about Centurion's having been mounted on the march.

How difficult would it be to advance with the scouts to select a site for the camp? (Caesar, Gallic War 2.17: "[Caesar] sent forward scouts and centurions, who were to select a suitable site for the camp".) Maybe they just hitched a ride?