The Centurion and his horse questions.

[jkaler48]

Of course while it may have been more difficult to do so if they were on foot rather than mounted it still doesn't amount to proof about the base question about Centurion's having been mounted on the march.

How difficult would it be to advance with the scouts to select a site for the camp? (Caesar, Gallic War 2.17: "[Caesar] sent forward scouts and centurions, who were to select a suitable site for the camp".) Maybe they just hitched a ride?

Good citation. Were scouts always mounted?

[jkaler48]

Also I have found this by POLYIBUS:
"At the end of a march, when the army arrives near the place of their encampment, a tribune and some centurions, who are appointed always for this purpose, advance before tile rest"

And from Vegetius:
"The general, before he puts his troops in motion, should send out detachments of trusty and experienced soldiers well mounted, to reconnoiter the places through which he is to march, in front, in rear, and on the right and left, lest he should fall into ambuscades."

[jvrjenivs]

These are all interesting citations John, but actually only tells us that there were experienced centurios who know to ride. When on march, someone has to go ahead and check for a good site for the next camp or to get intelligence. These scouts therefore must be highly moveable, so were mounted (at least knew to ride and probably all had a horse). Those experienced officers (including centurios as in your citation) who were going to look in advance of the column had to be mounted. This doesn't tell you anything about the lower centurio, which not leaves the column.

Here a stele of a exploratores who was mounted.

(unfortunatelly I don't have a source of that stele) but probably it is in the database on the mainsite.)

[jkaler48]

These are all interesting citations John, but actually only tells us that there were experienced centurios who know to ride. When on march, someone has to go ahead and check for a good site for the next camp or to get intelligence. These scouts therefore must be highly moveable, so were mounted (at least knew to ride and probably all had a horse). Those experienced officers (including centurios as in your citation) who were going to look in advance of the column had to be mounted. This doesn't tell you anything about the lower centurio, which not leaves the column.

Yes I am still at this position:
"Centurions in some senior positions, sick or wounded centurions not able to march long distances and older time served veteran Centurions would be mounted on the march.
Other centurions not."

[jkaler48]

Apparently it was not uncommon for regular Legionaries in Caesar's time to know how to ride:
"caes.gal.1.42": [1.42] Upon being apprized of Caesar's arrival, Ariovistus sends embassadors to him, [saying] that what he had before requested as to a conference, might now, as far as his permission went, take place, since he [Caesar] had approached nearer, and he considered that he might now do it without danger. Caesar did not reject the proposal and began to think that he was now returning to a rational state of mind as he spontaneously proffered that which he had previously refused to him when requesting it; and was in great hopes that, in consideration of his own and the Roman people's great favors toward him, the issue would be that he would desist from his obstinacy upon his demands being made known. The fifth day after that was appointed as the day of conference. Meanwhile, as ambassadors were being often sent to and fro between them, Ariovistus demanded that Caesar should not bring any foot-soldier with him to the conference, [saying] that "he was afraid of being ensnared by him through treachery; that both should come accompanied by cavalry; that he would not come on any other condition." Caesar, as he neither wished that the conference should, by an excuse thrown in the way, be set aside, nor durst trust his life to the cavalry of the Gauls, decided that it would be most expedient to take away from the Gallic cavalry all their horses, and thereon to mount the legionary soldiers of the tenth legion, in which he placed the greatest confidence, in order that he might have a body-guard as trustworthy as possible, should there be any need for action. And when this was done, one of the soldiers of the tenth legion said, not without a touch of humor, "that Caesar did more for them than he had promised; he had promised to have the tenth legion in place of his praetorian cohort; but he now converted them into horse."

[D B Campbell]

Apparently it was not uncommon for regular Legionaries in Caesar's time to know how to ride.

Of course, the point is not whether centurions knew how to ride. We've already cited cases of centurions who must have known how to ride in order to perform their particular functions (e.g. the man temporarily seconded to command a cavalry regiment). Presumably, when Caesar mounted men from the Tenth legion, he dismounted an equal number of cavalry in order to provide the horses.

However, the question is: when he sent scouts and centurions forward to reconnoitre the camp site, were the centurions obliged to scamper alongside the scouts, because they were infantry officers and lacked horses? Did they borrow horses from someone? Or were they already mounted for the march? (Or were the scouts on foot, which seems the least likely scenario to me.)

[Matt Lukes]

Ah, okay, I read equestrian as equestrian- the social rank- not as horseman. But even so my problem with the statement being relevant stands- it's still not meaning the average Centurio, right?

It's a poem, so it's never going to be straightforward. It's a poem about a man who takes up the post of the emperor's ab epistulis, and lists his duties (in poetical language). One of his duties is to announce "who will restrain the hundred, as an eques sent among the manipli". He's clearly talking about the appointment of centurions (in poetic language, "restraining the hundred" is obviously the task of a centurion). It seems to me that he is contrasting "mounted" (eques) with "foot" (manipli), but he may actually be referring to the centurion as an equestrian. Difficult. (And poetic.)

What references do you have for the 'many centurions came from the ranks of the equites singulares? I'm not familiar with that fact.

You're just setting me up to knock me back down again, aren't you?! :wink:
Pretty standard stuff, in the lore of appointments to the centurionate, but here goes: CIL 6, 31175 (dedication to a bewildering selection of deities worshipped by the equites, including their own personal genius, by a centurion of the VII Gemina, clearly on his promotion from the Horse Guard); ILS 2213 (dedication by a centurion of I Minervia, on his promotion from decurion of the Horse Guard); ILS 2417 (dedication by a centurion of IIII Flavia to "horsey" deities, mentioning a previous posting as trainer in the Horse Guard); ILS 4776 (dedication to the cavalry goddesses normally worshipped by the Horse Guard by a centurion of VII Gemina); ...

Right, okay, well my 'quibble' still stands though that this is all about the norm, not unusual cases- poetry surely is problematic, but it doesn't constitute good proof then I should think. And I found more on eqestrians becoming centuriones in Campbell's 'Roman Army 31BC-AD337', although even there it doesn't sound like it was the norm.

It seems reasonable that if >Clemens were seconded to a cavalry unit, he must have ridden- but the question is did a Centurio normally ride instead of march, and just because one could doesn't mean one did.

[Original reply deleted: polite reply follows]Do you promote a man to command 500 horsemen in wartime, when he doesn't own a horse and can't ride? Discuss.[/quote]

Discuss what? A generic centurio doesn't command 500 horsemen- this specific man did and I clearly said he must have ridden, right? My point is that he's not necessarily a usual case...

[Matt Lukes]

older time served veteran Centurions would be mounted on the march.

If you're referring to my first quote John, you have it backwards- in that situation clearly it was a special case where he was given a horse to go scouting a new location for the army's encampment and because it was a speical case suggested on a march maybe he wouldn't have been riding. It's tricky since he'd just arrived at the army's position and the 'mission' was a setup to kill him so he didn't actually get to go anywhere with the army LOL

[Matt Lukes]

Of course while it may have been more difficult to do so if they were on foot rather than mounted it still doesn't amount to proof about the base question about Centurion's having been mounted on the march.

How difficult would it be to advance with the scouts to select a site for the camp? (Caesar, Gallic War 2.17: "[Caesar] sent forward scouts and centurions, who were to select a suitable site for the camp".) Maybe they just hitched a ride?

That's interesting because it's the same situation as I quoted from Dionysius- the old Centurio was to ride out and find a better site for the camp; it certainly make sense that this is the kind of thing that couldn't be allowed to take very long since building the camp isn't a quick process and has the limitations of being a best done in daylight operation. It'd take quite a long time to move about in the general area to find the best site so horseback seems the only logical way to do it- but marching from point a to point b, however, that's different- there riding is just a comfort (over walking).

[Matt Lukes]

And I found these in Campbell's book:

"152 Josephus (1st c. AD), Jewish War 3, 115-26

(section 124) The trumpeters followed these holy objects [the eagle and standards- M], and behind them the packed marching column, six abreast. According to the usual procedure a centurion accompanied them to supervise the marching ranks."

and:

"Arrian (2nd C.AD), Ectaxis contra Alanos 1-11

(section 5) Next should come the standard of the fifteenth legion (Apollinaris) with Valens the commander of the legion, the second in command, the military tribunes who have been assigned to the expidition, and centurions of the first cohort (of the legion)."

and:

"(section 9)Centurions who have been appointed for this purpose should keep the flanks of the infantry in order; ..."

[D B Campbell]

And I found these in Campbell's book: "152 Josephus (1st c. AD), Jewish War 3, 115-26 ... and: Arrian (2nd C.AD), Ectaxis contra Alanos 1-11 ...

So we have come full circle:

... [For] Then there's Arrian, who seems to suggest that the centurions travel en masse with the other senior officers, who were definitely mounted. ... [Against] And Josephus says, of Vespasian's marching legionaries, "many a centurion accompanied them, according to their custom of watching the column" (BJud. 3.124). (Of course, he doesn't specify that they were on foot.)

[jkaler48]

So different conclusions can be drawn from the same scant evidence! So far it looks as if all that can be definitely concluded is that some Centurions at times were mounted but
beyond that further evidence is insufficient to rise to the level of proof that Centurions were or were not mounted on the march.

[Robert Vermaat]

So different conclusions can be drawn from the same scant evidence!

Yep, that's modern science for you. But even when the data are numerous, scientists can continue argueing.. I once read a case about the astronomers who argued something different about the planet Venus. After the data from a probe becaome available, the argument continued - they both claimed to have been vindicated! Science rocks.

[Magnus]

I don't think its' "different" conclusions, more like when the situation required a centurion to be mounted, then he was. Otherwise, it was the walking ticket.

[jkaler48]

I don't think its' "different" conclusions, more like when the situation required a centurion to be mounted, then he was. Otherwise, it was the walking ticket.

The occasional use of horses by Centurions would require the Legion to have "Spare" horses (and tack) or dismount someone else to provide mounts. So a new question arises; are there any written accounts supporting spare mounts accompanying the Legions?