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Getting back to the original topic.... 
Herodotus 1.67.5 speaks of the "??????????" or Agathoergi" or "Doers of Good Deeds' or 'Morally Good Deeds" or what have you. Herodotus says that these are veterans of the Hippeis, 5 each year, who go into this status before "retirement." This suggests that the Hippeis had a choosing system for recruitment and a "retirement" system.. that the survivors were literally "exemplars of moral goodness" and thatonly 5 a year were released. Again, since it is unlikely that they were spread over 60 years of service, it seems more likely that they had a low survival rate...
Of course, if there were only 100 knights, then 5 a year would represent a service of 20 years, which would make a great deal of sense.
Either way, the suggestion--a system for inclusion and retirement--, and a heightened political responsibility at the end--would seem to mean something.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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I just noticed this in the quote from Xenophon above:
Quote:[31] And the horsemen of the Lacedaemonians, seemingly very few in number, were formed in line against them. Meanwhile the Lacedaemonians had set an ambush of the younger hoplites, about three hundred in number
Three hundred. Again we see this number of hoplites that has nothing to do with hippeis and not even an obvious connection to picking troops from different tribes, but simply a handy unit size.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:A very different thing than the scenario you presented: "Both of the former two might easily have sacked Sparta" [...] Phillip did not fight his way into Thebes. By this logic, Hannibal "might easily have sacked Rome." Clearly beating an army in the field and having a polis handed to you by the remaining faction of its citizens is not the same as taking a city by storm. Doson did not take the city of Sparta by assault.
I do not wish to hijack the thread so I will be short and final.
Firstly, Philip, had he the time or interest in investing and taking Sparta, will not have shied from it due to any fear of defeat or difficulty. He'd not done so at any other time in his carrer and the man who'd taken Amphipolis, Methone and Olynthus would not start here. He'd far more engaging issues to attend to including, but not limited to, an Hellenic League to set up, a marriage and 10,000 Macedonians and mercenaries he wanted off to Asia. Alexander too will have invested Sparta had he the time and inclination. He too had far more important matters at the time of his elevation to the throne (the 10,000 aforementioned and revolts to name two).
Doson had no need of "taking Sparta by storm" just as Philip had no such need for Thebes: both were completely destroyed militarily in the field and there was no further resistance. The mantra that Doson "never took Sparta by storm" is a comforting straw man for those who wish to promote the continued "inviolate" state of Sparta in antiquity. Plutarch records some 6,000 dead (this might likely be an exaggeration; Polybios says they "suffered severely"). Plutarch says Cleomenes advised the Spartans (the ephors one imagines) not to resist. Polybios states that Antigonus "having surprised and taken Sparta" treated the city humanely.
There was no "storming" for the Macedonian phalanx had already stormed Sparta at Sellasia: there was nothing to resist with and so Sparta suffered complete and utter defeat and occupation.
Paralus|Michael Park
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους
Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!
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Quote:There was no "storming" for the Macedonian phalanx had already stormed Sparta at Sellasia: there was nothing to resist with and so Sparta suffered complete and utter defeat and occupation.
Excellent, I love when we agree! Sparta was not taken by storm by Doson. And since the Spartans were alternately wise enough not to face Thebes in the field during the first incursion into Laconia and successful in fighting them to a draw in the second, it is obvious that Epameinondas a) could not take the city by storm, b) could not coax the Spartans into a battle that would leave Sparta defenseless, and win it. Thus there is no time in which Thebes coud have "easily sacked Sparta". History proves this often repeated notion wrong.
Though perhaps I look for too much fairness to Sparta from the ship that ran home from Aegospotami with its stern between its oars... :wink:
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Hey, I certainly enjoyed the reparte' generated in the responses to this subject! Wonderful!
I would like to interject, unless I missed reading certain passages from the above, regarding the use of the number "300!"
I feel that this number is quite expressive of a numerous connection between actions that are now seperated in our "consensual" history by generations! That is, 300 can mean units of 99+a sergeant, etc., or 300+a sergeant, etc., or various permentations of the above, but the total number might always be rounded out to equal "300!"
Thus I have a question to ask of you! Have any of you ever made a correlation of historical events where the number "300" or a near relation, such as "250" or "320", occurs during a great battle victory, or a great loss?
I am sorry since I am the "new guy on the block" so to speak, but I ask questions of you since I have read a lot of good research answers already from most of you! So, just how do we differentiate between the "300" Spartans and the "300" Holy Band of Thebes (Homosexuals), or the "300" Catalans, or the "300" Phocians, etc. Does our currently accepted or consensual chronology allow such correlations to exist? One must note that two of the above seemed to have happened at about the same time but in different parts of the world!
Due to popular opinion, I have removed the rest of this post!
My apology!
Regards,
Ron
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Quote:Getting back to the original topic....
Herodotus 1.67.5 speaks of the "??????????" or Agathoergi" or "Doers of Good Deeds' or 'Morally Good Deeds" or what have you. Herodotus says that these are veterans of the Hippeis, 5 each year, who go into this status before "retirement." This suggests that the Hippeis had a choosing system for recruitment and a "retirement" system.. that the survivors were literally "exemplars of moral goodness" and thatonly 5 a year were released. Again, since it is unlikely that they were spread over 60 years of service, it seems more likely that they had a low survival rate...
Of course, if there were only 100 knights, then 5 a year would represent a service of 20 years, which would make a great deal of sense.
Either way, the suggestion--a system for inclusion and retirement--, and a heightened political responsibility at the end--would seem to mean something.
...That there were three hundred "Hippeis' is reasonably certain, as is the fact that they were 'Hebontes' ( the 20-29 year-olds inclusive) - see P1. of this thread and James McKinnon's lengthy post 18 November ( which you may have missed through your computer being 'down' :wink: )...as in other Greek states, Spartans did not become full Adult Citizens until 30......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
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Since I came upon you like the locusts in the Biblical holocaust, I would like to apologize for the length of my two posts, and their non-relevance to this post in general. I am now removing the rest of this post due to popular opinion!
Ronald L. Hughes
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Again, due to popular opinion I am deleting this post.
I shall try to be a tad less wordy in future posts!
Ron
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I'm not much for reading off a monitor; even less for reading what amounts to the Weekend New York Times several times over??!!
Paralus|Michael Park
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους
Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!
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Ron,
Your posts are far too long and disorganized to elicit a response from any of us. If you want to discuss on this forum, I'd suggest you limit your posts to a few paragraphs, avoid the extensive external linking, and wait for replies. Otherwise you are simply hijacking what was a lively thread and such long posts will surely kill it.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Ron, you are welcome to take a meaningful part in any discussion here.....but it is not the place to 'cut and paste' your extensive writings on the number 300 in history. You must surely know it is wrong to hijack this forum/thread as a vehicle to publish your own hypotheses which really have nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread. Please delete your long and irrelevant posts, and then contribute in a meaningful way to the subject of 'Hippeis' ONLY, if you wish !
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Yes, I was far too subtle earlier.
Such self indulgent claptrap belongs elsewhere: Wiki perhaps?
Personally, a history of the legendary "white boots" might be entertaining. Handed down throughout the millenia, it seems obvious that Leonidas wore them at Thermopylae from whence Mardonius picked them up and found them to be a perfect fit.
I've never worked out how they made it to "Changa" Langlands in 1974....
Paralus|Michael Park
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους
Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!
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Dear Scipio, you wrote; "Please delete your long and irrelevant posts, and then contribute in a meaningful way to the subject of 'Hippeis' ONLY, if you wish !" If you have noticed I have taken your kind advice and deleted my three long posts! But, there was a connection! And yes, the number of men in a number of famous units seems to be too often for chance, to have been 300!
Conversations concerning "Hippeis", over about 5 pages, continue the mention of 300 Hippeis on a regular basis, and there was even a few mentions of the 300 Spartans, vs the Persians, and whether they were actually "Hippeis", etc. It even seems the jury is still out on this subject! It seems in our history, the death of almost exactly 300 warriors has a lot of print dedicated to this very fact. As regards the famous account at Thermoplae, it seems there was another massacre of the 300 Fabians, in Veii, on exactly the same day, or at least very close to it! Other accounts preceed the Spartan one, such as that of the Phokians / Phocians, in the same area.
There was even the famous Catalan Company which, it seems had two distinct encounters with only 300 knights! There were about 300 Knights Templar killed in a battle in the Levant, at La Forbie and at Mansurah, and there are, it seems, a few other examples which can be accessed!
So, you see 300 is an almost magic number? Just what made it so? Other examples can be made available if anyone cares to see them.
Regards,
Ron
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Well done, and thank you Ron !
You have made your point concerning the frequency of military units of 300 quite succinctly, now ! There could be many reasons for this size unit cropping up, from mystical/quasi religious ones, to the practical mundane one that a group around this size, regardless of formation is about as big as can hear the verbal orders of a single person......it is certainly noticeable, as you point out, how often it occurs in military history.......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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And thanks to you sir Scipio!
Whilst you did not admit it, you did indicate that you at least found the situation(s) mentioned as worthy of thought!
You must understand, within the posts that I deleted, I did make points that are not mentioned in the abbreviated form that I ultimately posted!
But, I would hate to keep any of you busy reading more than four or more sentences? I really meant that in jest! Laugh!
Thanks for your kind post! I wish I had not come unto this list like a "Caesar!", but more like a "Lamb!?"
I know the lack of subtlety is not wasted upon a "lion" like you? Chuckle!
But, in the above situations, there exists a lot of possible connections, like the repeating mention of lines that seem to be first used by Xerxes at the Battle where 300 Spartans died! You, or some of you, must at least know of the quotation mentioned? But, did any of you know that the same "quote" although in a sometimes differing version, has been said at least twice more?
And, methinks that the word "hi-jacking" is a most over-used term? Just how does one "hy-jak" or "Hi-jack" a series of posts? Sorry, I just had to ask!
Regards,
Ron
You see, "I come to bury Caesar, and not to praise him!" Another famous quote!
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