Hippeis, not Hippies

[Kineas]

Ron,
It's not a bad subject for a topic--but the gentlemanly thing (the thing full of Arete) here would be to post it as its own topic. You can start a topic--it's a bit daunting the first time, but it gets easier. Your "300--is it a real number?" thread would probably do quite well.

Back to topic--may I recommend "Greeks and Greek Love" by James Davidson? Whatever you think about homosex and the ancient world, it's a beautifully documented set of arguments. The part that bears on us, on this list, has nothing to do with homosex, and is specifically about the development of age-groups in Sparta, Crete, and Athens. The way in which he lays out the change in status among Dorians, Ionians, and Aeolians is very interesting and would fuel much argument here--good argument. He also offers some interesting tidbits on hunting and dance as sources of military "drill."

[Ronald]

My dear Christian!

You are most probably correct! Maybe I should post in a direct manner? But, I seem to work best from behind the corners of the room? We shall see what becomes of my past suggestions concerning the "quotations!" I do not think I should actually give the most popular one here, should I?

My opinion is that "nothing ventured, nothing gained!"

Regards,
Ron

[Paullus Scipio]

Kineas wrote:

the development of age-groups in Sparta, Crete, and Athens. The way in which he lays out the change in status among Dorians, Ionians, and Aeolians is very interesting and would fuel much argument here--good argument.

...might I be so bold as to suggest that you follow your own advice and set this up as a new topic? The more so as it does not strictly relate to 'Hippeis', or even 'Spartans'.

In Spartan society we have 'paides',(7-17 aprox) 'paidiskoi' (17-20 aprox), 'hebontes' (20 - 29 aprox) and finally 'Homioi',( adult males over 30 with full citizen rights, ) for example........ with equivalents in other Greek societies, as you have mentioned.... D

[Kineas]

Respectfully disagree.... it does!

Age groups may dictate the joinging and leaving a a body like the Hippeis, and may indicate that social rank did or did not play a role.

[Paullus Scipio]

O.K.......it does relate to this subject, but you were speaking of the broader role of these age-related 'strata' in Greek society generally, not just 'Hippeis', and not just Sparta......and which as you indicated, is a worthy subject of its own, and since it was your idea, I renew my invitation for you to initiate the subject as a new thread .....please !! D

[Old Husker]

P.J. Stylianou in his Oxford Classical Monograph A Historical Commentary on Diodorus Siculus Book 15 (Clarendon Press, 1998) has a fairly extensive discussion about the Spartan hippeis on p. 290-294. His discussion is quite detailed and incorporates material from a wide range of ancient sources. He summarizes his conclusions (p. 293) as follows: "The 300 hippeis were an ancient 'Lycurgan' institution meant to encourage healthy rivalry among young Spartans. Once they had indeed been hippeis, but were no longer; they merely kept the title (Strabo 10 C 481-2). Once they had numbered 300, but from the middle of the 5th century to the latest they could no longer do so. However, the name, the 300 hippeis, was retained. It was not their function to act as a royal bodyguard by nature of their office. Yet in elitist Sparta (and this was an elitism based only partly on merit; birth and wealth almost certainly counted for more) the eminent men who fought with the king must largely have coincided with the hippeis, past and present." In short, he sees the hippeis as a group of youths (actually 20-30 years old) elected from the spartiate population, numbering 300 until population decline (at least of spartiates) made this unattainable, using a title left over from an equestrian past and with current and former members dominating royal bodyguards of varible strength which were perhaps gathered in a somewhat ad hoc manner for each campaign. I don't know if this is any kind of final word (is anything when it comes to scanty ancient data?), but it's worth consideration in light of his high level of research.

[Ronald]

Many thanks for the kind replies from all of you! It seems most obvious that whenever one is to discuss a "group" of men, in which, either in life or death, the number close to 300, is apparent for all to see, that the cheese in Denmark is rotten? A funny paraphrase!

But, one must consider that when I mentioned the times when the deceased of a group of "Religious Monks?" or "Knights", which were a part of a "brotherhood", like the famous, but dead, group from Thebes, which are assumed to have been, in the modern thought, as "Gay!", could be compared to a Catholic "brotherhood" like the "Knights Templar", or one of the other all male sects, which we have seen even until our times seems to have been largely composed of "gay" Catholics, etc.! These men, were "married" to Jesus, just as were the females who joined certain sects!

While most of us find that a group of Greeks, even Greeks from Thebes, could have "ordered?" a group of "Brothers" or as the famous movied of a few years past called one of them, "The Band of Brothers", just what else could one call a group of men, who were (it seems) cut off from women, and developed into "warriors", of which the Spartan mothers are supposed to have adivised all of their sons, "Either come home with your shield or upon it!", motto, then we enter the environment of "Christian Soldiers" or "Christian Knights?"

After all of the above nonsense written by me, I really meant to place a close examination upon quotations of "famous utterances", such as the Persian King, reportedly uttered when facing the small band of Greeks that opposed them at Thermoplae! As some of you might well know, it was somewhat of a difficulty for the defense of the Holy Land whenever one had a "band of brothers", IE, like some Catholic Brothers (Chistian Brothers or Cistarian, or Jesuit brothers of today, who just happened to be great fighters, and also willing to die for their cause!

Can anyone name any Spanish groups who would suffice to fulfill the bill for an extreme "Band of Brothers?"

And, of course, I still leave you all with the famous "quotation" from the famous Mede / Persian who faced the Spartans, in a narrow defile? Has this quote been used more than once? First of all you must "quote" the "quote", and then look for similar accounts, where by there was also a similar "quote" available!

Regards,
Ron

Edit, rereading what I wrote in haste above, is like reading the words of a new arrival to America, but without, but a few mistakes, I think it made the point(s) that I wanted it to make! And, if it seems like I am playing some kind of game(s) you might well be correct! But, as a teacher in heart, I would rather the student find the real points rather than having them spelled out to them! My small indications that "something is rotten in Denmark" and the "qoutes", etc., might well cause at least one of you to really investigate the sources, and the related sources? At least that is my hope?

[Ghostmojo]

What is interesting also, is the opinions of modern historians. I was wondering what various posters here think of what they have read from well informed current authors? I have mentioned Cartledge before, but am currently reading the new book from Nigel M. Kennell - Spartans A New History ([size=85:3aut2kuz]Wiley-Blackwell[/size]). In case you don't know of him, he is an Instructor at the International Centre for Hellenic & Mediterranean Studies at Athens. He is also a member of the American School at Athens, but is perhaps better known as the author of The Gymnasium of Virtue (1995).

He makes great play of recent archaeological discoveries in his fact-finding and also clearly is writing for an educated - but not necessarily scholarly - audience. He has interesting things to say on the Hippeis from what I have picked out so far.

Talking about hebontes he says: "these young men were also eligible for distinction as members of the 300-strong crack unit called the hippeis or 'knights', who actually fought as hoplites, not horseback." Nothing contentious there. He continues: "Their most prestigious duty was to act as bodyguards for each king while he was on campaign, with the task usually assigned to one third of their number (Hdt 6.56)." Once again one of these modern historian guys has gone and done it again!!! (although specifying/clarifying the 100-strong sub-group)...

Furthermore he elaborates: "While the rest of the hebontes were brigaded throughout the lochoi, the Hippeis had the extraordinary privilege of forming a separate corps outside the military chain of command". Well, fair enough I think we'd go along with that (except perhaps his emphasis about the chain of command bit - I would have inserted 'usual' or 'regular' there perhaps), adding: "The Hippeis also acted as the domestic security service as in the Cinadon crisis (Xen. Hell. 3.3.9)". OK, we know they were a Spartan MI5 (rather than MI6) as we have covered this ground trodden by Kinadon before. He then explains: "The Hippeis' loyalty and discretion in carrying out such sensitive assignments was due to their special status in the Spartan military heirarchy. On campaign the Hippeis and Hippagretai answered directly to the kings, at home to the ephors". I can see much merit in that comment. A sort of split allegiance somehow fits the balance of power between kings and ephors.

Elsewhere when elaborating upon the powers of the Ephorate he also states: "..."From amongst the eldest hebontes they also designated the three hippagretai, who chose 300 hebontes to serve as the 'cavalrymen' (hippeis), the crack royal bodyguard (Xen. Lac. 4.3). The Hippeis also seem to have constituted a special strike force at the ephors' direct disposal... And then he mentions the singular tribute paid to one of Athens' finest: "Themistocles was given the unique honor of being escorted to the Arcadian border by the crack ([size=85:3aut2kuz]a word he likes[/size]) three hundred 'knights' (hippeis), who normally accompanied only the kings to battle (Hdt. 8.124) - perhaps a temporary and symbolic elevation to royal status." Now he is definitely going out on a limb there, but he might be right.

He of course mentions Mantinea and Leuktra with further references to royal bodyguard still intact in his thinking, finally mentioning (in relation to the powers and privileges of the kings): "In battle the king usually (but not always) fought on the right wing, in the place of honor usually reserved for commanders, and in the company of an elite guard of 100 men picked from the 300-strong crack ([size=85:3aut2kuz]there it is again[/size]) corps of hippeis (knights)..."

More fuel to fan the flames ...

[Paullus Scipio]

.....and the Myth ( of the Hippeis being specifically a Royal Bodyguard ) goes on....... :roll: :roll:

[Ronald]

I suppose I must either make my point, if it is one, at this time. Thus I will first refer you to this site; http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I52h.html where you can read the following;

"Two obscure battles fought prior to 480 BC helped Phokis throw off the Thessalian yoke. In a battle in the pass at Hyampolis, they defeated the Thessalian cavalry by strategem, which involved digging a ditch, filling it with empty water jars, and then leveling it over with dirt. The jars broke beneath the weight of the charging Thessalian horse, dismounting riders and crippling the legs of their steads.

The Thessalians retaliated with a massive invasion of Phokia. A reconnaisance force of 300 Phokians under Gelon was destroyed to the man, prompting a panic among the Phokians. All their women, children and goods were collected and placed under the charge of 30 men with orders to kill them and burn the goods if the Thessalians should prevail in the coming battle (a.k.a. "The Phocian Despair"). The Phokians then mustered their forces with Daiphantes of Hyampolis commanding the horse and Rhoeus of Ambrossus leading the foot under the overall direction of Tellias, a seer of Elias, who brought a favorable oracle from Delphi. In the subsequent battle, the Phokians fought desperately and wrenched victory against long odds against the Thessalians who were compelled to retire.

Subsequently, Tellias the Eleian hand-picked six hundred Phokians and had them and their armor and shields covered in white chalk. They attacked the Thessalians at night in their encampment, causing a panic and slaying over 4000. Defeated and demoralized, the Thessalians withdrew.

In 481 AD, the Spartan King Leonidas set a Phokian contingent of 1000 to guard the Anoplaia, a path through the mountains that flanked the Greek position at Thermopylae. Guided by a local shepard, Hydarnes and his Persian Immortals surprised the Phokians, driving them to the safety of a nearby mountain under hail of arrows, and descended into the rear of the Greek army, thus sealing the fate of Leonidas and his 300 Spartans. Herodotus (Histories, Book VII) describes the fateful role of the Phokians as follows:

While the Persians were ascending they were concealed from these, since all the mountain was covered with oak-trees; and the Phokians became aware of them after they had made the ascent as follows: the day was calm, and not a little noise was made by the Persians, as was likely when leaves were lying spread upon the ground under their feet; upon which the Phokians started up and began to put on their arms, and by this time the Barbarians were close upon them. These, when they saw men arming themselves, fell into wonder, for they were expecting that no one would appear to oppose them, and instead of that they had met with an armed force. Then Hydarnes, seized with fear lest the Phokians should be Lacedemonians, asked Epialtes of what people the force was; and being accurately informed he set the Persians in order for battle. The Phokians however, when they were hit by the arrows of the enemy, which flew thickly, fled and got away at once to the topmost peak of the mountain, fully assured that it was against them that the enemy had designed to come, and here they were ready to meet death. These, I say, were in this mind; but the Persians meanwhile with Epialtes and Hydarnes made no account of the Phokians, but descended the mountain with all speed.

Following the disaster at Thermoplae, Phokia was occupied by the Persians under Mardonius who impressed 1000 Phokian hoplites under Harmokydes into service to support their campaign against Thebes. Considering the Phokians to be unreliable based on the reports of his Thessalian allies, Mardonius sent a force of Persian cavalry to shoot down the Phokians. Harmokydes exhorted his countrymen to die fighting for their honor, and the Phokians closed ranks and resisted the Persian on-slaught. According to Herodotus, Mardonius was impressed by their display and sent a herald who announced: 'Be of good courage, Phokians, for ye proved yourselves good men, and not as I was informed. Now therefore carry on this way with zeal, for ye will not surpass in benefits either myself or the king."

From the above just to make the point that the Spartans were certainly not the first group of Greeks or Proto Greeks / Hellenes to lose 300 troops, but similar contingents, in the same pass, were also taken by a suprise attack after the discovery of a secret passage! So, in this Greek world, it seems we had at lest three groups of 300 who met their ends in battle, the Sacred Band of Thebes, the Phokians, and the Spartans, with all of these events taking place in either the same place or nearby. How could one figure out the odds of three of these battles surviving into modern times? Could it really be mere chance?

End of first post.

Regards,
Ron

[Ghostmojo]

.....and the Myth ( of the Hippeis being specifically a Royal Bodyguard ) goes on....... :roll: :roll:

Indeed it does.

However, I do feel you are too quick to dismiss the opinions of modern-day historians of note (Cartledge, Kennell etc.) who arrive at this conclusion. They have read all the ancient sources and probably more besides. They have pored over the same sections of text that we have. Some of these guys have spent a lifetime researching and discussing such matters. Their academic backgrounds and university seats certainly impresses me. I think you would have to go a long way to meet somebody with quite the degree of expertise in Sparta that say Paul Cartledge has. So what is he missing?

Following on from this discussion, my own position has changed somewhat. I admit to having gone from initially being certain that they were a Royal Guard, to now feeling they were at least some of the time, and maybe periodically only in part (i.e. the one third ratio). The lack of recorded native Spartan records is indeed a problem. There's no getting around that. However, there is sufficient absence of universal certainty in what information has been presented to us down the ages, for speculation to continue and also for the view that the Hippeis fulfilled such a role (in some manner) to deserve some credence.

However, in some ways the numerical value is irrelevant. There certainly is curiosity about the prevalance of the 300 figure but it doesn't really help this discussion. If it were just appearing in use by Dorians we might be able to support the tri-tribal theory - but it appears with other Greeks too. I think the number was probably slightly in excess of that anyway. The 300 figure merely refering to the bulk of the troops, but not including leaders, officers etc. They are all perhaps in imitation of whoever was the first to utilise a unit of such size. It might relate back to the Battle of the Champions in that respect (and not just because of the Spartans, but also the Argives), with both participants setting a trend for others to follow ...

[Paullus Scipio]

You are right that I am no great fan of Paul Cartledge....but rather than digress into that, I'll stick to Nigel Kennell to demonstrate the 'lazy thinking' of many modern authors on the subject.....

On campaign the Hippeis and Hippagretai answered directly to the kings, at home to the ephors

...a rather pointless comment, because it was true of everybody, not just the Hippeis. The King had ultimate authority for day-to-day decisions on campaign. ( see ante and Herodotus VI.54 )

The Hippeis also acted as the domestic security service as in the Cinadon crisis (Xen. Hell. 3.3.9)

...Huh? "Hippeis" are, strictly speaking, never mentioned by Xenophon. Kinadon is tricked into thinking he is to go and arrest some people. He asks which of the 'hebontes'/young men he is to take with him ( n.b. not 'Hippeis' - can you really imagine 'the flower of Sparta' taking orders from a 'hypomeione'/inferior? Unthinkable!....and one wonders that any 'hebonte' would) He is told "Go to the senior 'Hippagreta' and ask him for six or seven of the men he happens to have available." Men, not 'Hippeis', not even 'Hebontes', but quite possibly fellow 'hypomeiones', or even 'Helots' or slaves......so we don't know who was sent with Kinadon, but it evidently wasn't 'Hippeis' - and from this comes another Myth !! 'Hippeis' as domestic security service/MI5 ? Hardly a logical conclusion.

The Hippeis also seem to have constituted a special strike force at the ephors' direct disposal...

...Really? What is the evidence for them ever being a 'special strike force' ? When do we see them used as such in any of our sources? Perhaps the author has Thermopylae in mind ? But we have seen that if Herodotus was telling facts rather than 'myth', the '300' were selected by Leonidas personally ( not the Hippagretae) from men over 30 - in fact over 31 if they had sons!....who by definition couldn't have been 'Hippeis' ( 'hebontes' under 30)

and in the company of an elite guard of 100 men picked from the 300-strong crack (there it is again) corps of hippeis (knights)..."

Nor is this likely to be true. Herodotus tells us that, among the priveleges of a Spartan King is that , on service, they have a bodyguard of '100 picked men' ( with the implication, seemingly confirmed by Xenophon, that it was the King, as you would expect who did the picking, from among those he trusted) - not "100 men picked from the Hippeis", and if the later practice described by Xenophon is any guide, these men may have included the King's friends, relations, and their sons - and one would expect that some/many of them might be ex-'Hippeis' in their youth, or even serving 'Hippeis', but that is a very different thing from them being 'allocated', say, by the 'Hippagretae' from among the 'Hippeis' .....

Sloppy fact checking, or else simply following other secondary sources.......valueless then x

[Ronald]

My reply, from a site that I culled for this response!

"http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Cleisthenes/ and; http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0812505.html

From the last site you can read; "Cleisthenes, fl. 510 B.C., Athenian statesman. He was the head of his family, the Alcmaeonidae, after the exile of Hippias, and with Spartan help had made himself undisputed ruler of Athens by 506 B.C. He established a more democratic constitution by weakening the clan system and the local parties and by organizing the districts into political rather than social divisions. The Alcmaeonidae thus became leaders of a democratic party, a reorientation making them anti-Spartan instead of pro-Spartan as earlier. An attempt of his rival, Isagoras, to overturn the reforms of Cleisthenes after Cleisthenes had been sent into exile failed, and Cleisthenes was recalled."

Now there is a lot going on at the above, but particular attention might be shown to the word "Hippias?" Just what or whom were or was,"Hippias?"

First look here; http://search.aol.com/aol/search?invoca ... %20Hippias We see that there was a tyrant named Hippias! But, it seems he is of no real importance here. Then read the following where "hippias" is merely spelled "Hippas!";

http://books.google.com/books?id=eJwSAA ... &resnum=10

From the above you will see what one learned "expert" had to say about it! He calls it "a form of wrestling!" You see, it happened a long time ago, back in BCE times! It could have nothing to do with later times! But, it is certainly very close!

Heck, as a child we / I even played such a game! The point was to "dismount" the rider! What other "game" involved this? If you perform any kind of search concerning "hippas" you will automatically notice that the word "hippo", which almost any fool would know is the ancient Greek word for "horse!", is a prime substitute!

I. E. "Augustine of Hippas / Hippo!"

Thus the game played in "ancient Greece" was a child’s version of "jousting!", Meaning, "Unseat your opponent!"

If you see the word "hippas" you might well want to consider "horse mounted knights?" I would suggest that the "wrestling matches" as our esteemed author above said, were merely Jousting Matches, which were a symbol of the Middle Ages! (and of course from my era also!)

So, from the above sites words concerning the "exile of (the) hippias", one might well consider that it was the exile of the "horse mounted knights!" or "the cavalry?"

You decide!

And now you will read (from the original quoted site) about two "obscure battles" which might seem familiar?

"Two obscure battles fought prior to 480 BC helped Phokis throw off the Thessalian yoke.
In a battle in the pass at Hyampolis, they defeated the Thessalian cavalry by strategem, which involved digging a ditch, filling it with empty water jars, and then leveling it over with dirt. The jars broke beneath the weight of the charging Thessalian horse, dismounting riders and crippling the legs of their steads."

How utterly incredible! Just how many hundreds of ceramic water jars would have been needed to make a difference? How deep would the "ditch" have to be?, and how long was it? And just how big were the water jars? The above begs for some explanation!

We need to stop at this point so I can make mention of another battle that is somewhat similar to the above "empty water jars" entry. Please see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halmyros

Where you will see; "The Company" (the Catalan Company) "assumed a defensive position on the plain of Orchomenus, near the River Cephissus. Their Turkish auxiliaries took up a separate position nearby, thinking the quarrel was a pretext arranged by the Company and the Duke of Athens to exterminate them.
To protect their position, the Catalans broke dikes and dug trenches, diverting water from the Cephissus to flood the fields lying in front of them."

(We must consider that the fields mentioned must have been recently tilled and made soft.)
On the eve of battle, the Catalans in the Duke's service, stricken by conscience, took leave of him and rejoined the Company. (You must know that the number of Catalan soldiers who left the service of Gauthier de Brienne, as said to have numbered 300!) This circumstance little disturbed the Duke, who still outnumbered the company, and had at his command the chivalry of the Frankish states in Greece, considered the flower of the French-speaking world." (In the above paragraph we are not told just how many Catalans were in the service of the "Duke", who is supposed to be Gauthier / Walter de Brienne!)
The Duke, with his banner in the vanguard, opened the battle with a cavalry charge against the Catalans, followed by the infantry. In the morass covering the Catalan front, the cavalry soon became hopelessly mired, the Duke and his banner falling in a rain of assegais from the almogavars. As the lightly-equipped Catalans advanced to cut down the wallowing knights, the Turkish auxiliaries descended from their camp upon the Athenian army, panicking and routing what remained of it.
According to Muntaner, only two of the seven hundred knights survived the battle, Roger Deslaur and Boniface of Verona. However, Nicholas Sanudo, later Duke of the Archipelago, also escaped, and a few others, like Antoine le Flamenc, were probably ransomed. Muntaner claims that 20,000 of the infantry were killed, and all of the native horse." (here as one of you has already sumised it seems that "native horse" in this instance means "native cavalry / horse=soldiers', in the plural, and not just a horse.
Regards,
Ron

[Ronald]

I certainly expected some reply to my above post? "Speechless I am!" Yoda

Ron

[Kineas]

Ron, I think you have hijacked this thread with long, off topic posts.