Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Looks more like diamond twill weave fabric armour to me anyway!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 4,029
Threads: 90
Joined: May 2005
Reputation:
0
Back to topic.
Ariston fragment is the best exmple of painted armor in my opinion.
Ariston reconstruction by Nikos Panos
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178 ... t=ffe9.jpg
The other examples are here:
(helmet)
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178 ... edhelm.jpg
(linothorax or "composite" armor)
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178 ... npatch.jpg
(Green porpax!!)
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178 ... battle.jpg
Anyone had a better pic of this?
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178 ... _A0002.jpg
It seems tha except Sparta other rich hoplites displayed their wealth.
Attached "Melbourn Hopliticon" Ariston reconstruction
Kind regards
Posts: 1,829
Threads: 78
Joined: Aug 2007
Reputation:
0
The topic of painted armor brings to mind this quote from Xenophon on Agiselaos's preperations for war in Asia. The tanslator has used "weapons" for the greek term "hopla," but I think it is clear that armor is being made as well from the list of craftsmen.
Hellenica 3.4.1
[17] In fact, he made the entire city, where he was staying, a sight worth seeing; for the market was full of all sorts of horses and weapons, offered for sale, and the copper-workers, carpenters, smiths, leather-cutters, and painters were all engaged in making martial weapons, so that one15 might have thought that the city was really a workshop of war.
[17] axian de kai holên tên polin+ en hêi ên [tên Epheson] theas epoiêsen: hê te gar agora ên mestê pantodapôn kai hippôn kai hoplôn ôniôn, hoi te chalkotupoi kai hoi tektones kai hoi chalkeis kai hoi skutotomoi kai hoi zôgraphoi pantes polemika hopla kateskeuazon, hôste tên polin ontôs oiesthai polemou ergastêrion einai.
Now for a question that is sure to start another arguement. What profession is conspicuously absent from that list?  hock:
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:The topic of painted armor brings to mind this quote from Xenophon on Agiselaos's preperations for war in Asia. The tanslator has used "weapons" for the greek term "hopla," but I think it is clear that armor is being made as well from the list of craftsmen.
Hellenica 3.4.1
[17] In fact, he made the entire city, where he was staying, a sight worth seeing; for the market was full of all sorts of horses and weapons, offered for sale, and the copper-workers, carpenters, smiths, leather-cutters, and painters were all engaged in making martial weapons, so that one15 might have thought that the city was really a workshop of war.
[17] axian de kai holên tên polin+ en hêi ên [tên Epheson] theas epoiêsen: hê te gar agora ên mestê pantodapôn kai hippôn kai hoplôn ôniôn, hoi te chalkotupoi kai hoi tektones kai hoi chalkeis kai hoi skutotomoi kai hoi zôgraphoi pantes polemika hopla kateskeuazon, hôste tên polin ontôs oiesthai polemou ergastêrion einai.
Now for a question that is sure to start another arguement. What profession is conspicuously absent from that list? hock:
Nice find! A little more evidence for the predominance of leather armour in the 4th c. BC...
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 2,730
Threads: 20
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
33
Hardly. We already know that leather was used in the manufacture of shields, scabbards, saddles, belts, straps, etc. It tells us nothing about whether any of that leather went towards armour.
Posts: 1,667
Threads: 288
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation:
1
I agree, nice find.
However, the fact that there were leather cutters only suggests that they were using leather for something not necessarrily loricas or other body armor.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)
Paolo
Posts: 1,829
Threads: 78
Joined: Aug 2007
Reputation:
0
Quote:Hardly. We already know that leather was used in the manufacture of shields, scabbards, saddles, belts, straps, etc.
What is missing is anyone working with linen, no weavers etc. Unless you a) believe that they were not making armor there (possible, but doubtful), or b) all of the armor was being made by the smiths out of bronze with leather fittings (near impossible at this date), then we are clearly missing the men who fabricated the majority of their armor unless it is the leather workers.
Surely there would have been weavers in any case to make clothing. Assuming they were there and ignored by Xenophon in his listing, then they were not seen as part of the group that was integral to arms and armor manufacture.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Posts: 1,028
Threads: 20
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:Hardly. We already know that leather was used in the manufacture of shields, scabbards, saddles, belts, straps, etc. It tells us nothing about whether any of that leather went towards armour.
This is clearly a reference to the production of all arms though - hence the word hopla and the mention of artisans so varied - and considering that we have a specific reference to a Spartan wearing a spolas in combat in the Anabasis, I would agree with Paul - the omission of any mention of textile workers points to the regular use of leather armour in the 4th c. BC. It's certainly not a major piece of evidence, but it does support what has already been established in the discussions in the leather/linen discussions.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Posts: 2,716
Threads: 42
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation:
18
Something to note:
He is saying "polemika hopla" translated as "martial weapons" as if weapoins could be anything else than martial. It confirms the meaning of "hopla" genericly as "tools",thus here specified as "polemika opla" ,"tools of war".
Also,the word translated as "copper workers" is "chalkotypoi" whereas the one translated as "smiths" is "chalkeis".
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
![[Image: -side-1.gif]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/-side-1.gif)
Posts: 1,829
Threads: 78
Joined: Aug 2007
Reputation:
0
Quote:Also,the word translated as "copper workers" is "chalkotypoi" whereas the one translated as "smiths" is "chalkeis".
Hey Giannis, I wondered about that. What is the difference between the two proffessions? What is a copper, presumably bronze, worker? Maybe he fashions scales?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Posts: 4,029
Threads: 90
Joined: May 2005
Reputation:
0
Chalkeys is the caster of copper (bronze or brass too)
Whlie chalkotypos the shaper of the metal. (chalkos + typto = stike the copper)
Kind regards
Posts: 2,045
Threads: 116
Joined: Apr 2003
Reputation:
0
My question is just what would the purpose of painting bronze armour be when the metal itself was valuable and presumably then something to show, and also why exactly would the colouration of a vase be considered to be realistic? Clearly the average Greek's skin isn't black. Perhaps the 'purple' was meant to show the different colour (relative to bronze) of iron? What kind of paint would they have had that would stick to metal anyway...?
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Not wanting to dispute you points, except perhaps the one about your average Greek.
Some Greeks, not all, but some, go almost black during the summer when exposed to the sun.
Even this variation within the same family! Unusual, but a very real thing.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 2,462
Threads: 93
Joined: Jun 2006
Reputation:
0
Imho many paints of the era would have stuck on metal, on marble also there have been found remains of paint chips, so why wouldnt it be possible on metal?
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
Posts: 68
Threads: 3
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
Linseedoil-paint and casein-paint. No problem to paint brass, bronze or iron with it, a good corrosion prevention.
|
