Painted cuirasses

[Nikic031]

Pottery painting is an art...I think we give it too much credit in terms of realistic description to the point we take it as a photography...So I agree with Matt Lukes on this one.

Although I think it would be possible for someone to have purple armor(for whatever reason it may be).But he would have to be rich enough and not use that armor often.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Remains of paint on Greek armour have been found! if that is not proof, what is?

M.VIB.M.

[Matt Lukes]

Imho many paints of the era would have stuck on metal, on marble also there have been found remains of paint chips, so why wouldnt it be possible on metal?

M.VIB.M.

Well marble is not metal- they're very different. For one thing, Marble is porous which adds enormously to how well a paint can adhere. Plus marble statues, etc. aren't used the way armour is- they're pretty much unexposed to abrasion or use of any kind. Have you ever tried to paint on metal with any of the appropriate era paints you know of? Many modern paints don't do well on metal...

Linseedoil-paint and casein-paint. No problem to paint brass, bronze or iron with it, a good corrosion prevention.

I'd ask the same question to you Stephan- have you ever tried any of these paints on metal? I'd think there'd be no proper adhesion with water-based paints; linseed oil paint should do better, being oil-based, but then again many modern oil-based paints don't work on metal- they'll spread and dry alright but will peel or otherwise come off quite easily. Primer is usually necessary for metal so far as I know. And corrosion resistence is useful for iron to be sure, but not bronze so much I think; and both benefit more from a smooth surface and cleaning, the latter being rather impossible if paint is present or it'd be removed by the abrasive.

Remains of paint on Greek armour have been found! if that is not proof, what is?

M.VIB.M.

It would be if you can reference it LOL

[MeinPanzer]

Imho many paints of the era would have stuck on metal, on marble also there have been found remains of paint chips, so why wouldnt it be possible on metal?

M.VIB.M.

Well marble is not metal- they're very different. For one thing, Marble is porous which adds enormously to how well a paint can adhere. Plus marble statues, etc. aren't used the way armour is- they're pretty much unexposed to abrasion or use of any kind. Have you ever tried to paint on metal with any of the appropriate era paints you know of? Many modern paints don't do well on metal...

Linseedoil-paint and casein-paint. No problem to paint brass, bronze or iron with it, a good corrosion prevention.

I'd ask the same question to you Stephan- have you ever tried any of these paints on metal? I'd think there'd be no proper adhesion with water-based paints; linseed oil paint should do better, being oil-based, but then again many modern oil-based paints don't work on metal- they'll spread and dry alright but will peel or otherwise come off quite easily. Primer is usually necessary for metal so far as I know. And corrosion resistence is useful for iron to be sure, but not bronze so much I think; and both benefit more from a smooth surface and cleaning, the latter being rather impossible if paint is present or it'd be removed by the abrasive.

Remains of paint on Greek armour have been found! if that is not proof, what is?

M.VIB.M.

It would be if you can reference it LOL

Regardless of any actual examples of paint remains on armour (and I must confess that I am not aware of any - I would be very curious to hear about them from H.J.), we do know that metal was painted in antiquity because in Macedonian art armour is very clearly depicted painted. So, for instance, on the Agios Athanasios tomb paintings there are helmets painted red and purple. Unless you would like to argue that these are leather (which I think is quite unlikely), then these are painted metal.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I will start looking in my archeology database and at the University library here in Leiden, since i am sure of it.

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Mein Panzer/Ruben wrote:

we do know that metal was painted in antiquity because in Macedonian art armour is very clearly depicted painted. So, for instance, on the Agios Athanasios tomb paintings there are helmets painted red and purple. Unless you would like to argue that these are leather (which I think is quite unlikely), then these are painted metal.

...not to mention many other examples, such as the Macedonian tomb of Lyson and Kallikles, and earlier examples in Greek Art, where we see Corinthians and other helmets partially painted black, or checkerboard, or imitation scales......

[Nikic031]

Mein Panzer/Ruben wrote:

we do know that metal was painted in antiquity because in Macedonian art armour is very clearly depicted painted. So, for instance, on the Agios Athanasios tomb paintings there are helmets painted red and purple. Unless you would like to argue that these are leather (which I think is quite unlikely), then these are painted metal.

...not to mention many other examples, such as the Macedonian tomb of Lyson and Kallikles, and earlier examples in Greek Art, where we see Corinthians and other helmets partially painted black, or checkerboard, or imitation scales......

Not to be disrespectful but did any of you ever consider the meaning of word "art"..I don't think I will explain this properly but art is not photography and many factors are involved into making this paintings...I think only relatively small part of pottery art can be used as real reference.And much more can be attributed to creativity of an artist, or the symbolic value of his work and much more(This is the case with 99% of artist in last 8000 years).I am more and more convinced that pottery images were not even intended to show exact stuff.

Again, 2500 years ago someone perhaps decided he should paint his armor,knowing the nature of humans there is good chance this actually happened,and some artist saw inspiration in him...all of them would after all, even today..That paint (or the unscratched parts of it to be exact) would be awful after only few trainings and one small incident(not to mention real battle).So I say whoever painted armor was rich,not too much of a regular soldier and certainly a show off...

As for checkered helmets---pure art. With 1cm of space and 3mm brush you can not depict real decoration you see in helmets and shield rims in museums etc etc....The only thing you can do (and as an pottery artist you will want to decorate everything,and make pretty pictures) is to put few dots or squares where real decoration(if any) was.

Thank God for museums or we would completely "cartoonize" ancient world....

[Matt Lukes]

I wondered about that too- taking artistic depictions to be accurate is very dodgy.

As a test, I decided to try both casein paint and linseed oil paint (just boiled linseed oil with casein paint powder added since the 'real' recipe is just oil and pigment), and while the latter isn't dry yet, the former was interesting; it was a miserable failure on iron- the edges dried quickly and cracked and peeled up and away from the metal, and when fully dry it took just a little puff of air to literally blow off a large flake of the paint, but on brass it actually worked reasonably well- no cracking and it's adhered to the metal quite solidly. Even with a fingernail, I can't scratch any off (not trying exceptionally hard of course), which is a complete surprise. So it seems the technical hurdle is overcome- casein paint will work on copper alloys. Of course it will scratch off with any hard edge or abrasive- just a cut piece of soft copper or a bit of stone does it. However if a protective layer of beeswax is applied, that seems to take much of the simple scratch contact and saves the paint. So perhaps just wax or a varnish of some sort would keep the paint safe enough. Although I do still lean toward what Nickic mentioned about how it would seem that even a short time of training or use could significantly damage so relatively frail a surface decoration... I suppose touching up scratches at home wouldn't be exceptionally problematic, and on campaign, maybe it wouldn't even be considered an issue...

[MeinPanzer]

Not to be disrespectful but did any of you ever consider the meaning of word "art"..I don't think I will explain this properly but art is not photography and many factors are involved into making this paintings...I think only relatively small part of pottery art can be used as real reference.And much more can be attributed to creativity of an artist, or the symbolic value of his work and much more(This is the case with 99% of artist in last 8000 years).I am more and more convinced that pottery images were not even intended to show exact stuff.

These aren't paintings on pottery - these are highly-detailed Macedonian tomb paintings, and it is well known that in many aspects of art Macedonian artists endeavoured for realism as much as possible (so there is the story of Alexander's court painter painting a picture of seeds and table scraps so realistic that birds were said to have pecked at it).

Again, 2500 years ago someone perhaps decided he should paint his armor,knowing the nature of humans there is good chance this actually happened,and some artist saw inspiration in him...all of them would after all, even today..That paint (or the unscratched parts of it to be exact) would be awful after only few trainings and one small incident(not to mention real battle).So I say whoever painted armor was rich,not too much of a regular soldier and certainly a show off...

All the evidence we have points to Hellenistic soldiers putting a lot of effort into their appearance, and especially wealthier soldiers, for the tombs of whom most of these paintings were commissioned. Pretty much the same criticisms could be made of gilded armour, or elaborate tunics, or any other luxuriously decorated pieces of equipment or clothing worn in combat. And yet literary and artistic evidence points to these being used in the Hellenistic period.

As for checkered helmets---pure art. With 1cm of space and 3mm brush you can not depict real decoration you see in helmets and shield rims in museums etc etc....The only thing you can do (and as an pottery artist you will want to decorate everything,and make pretty pictures) is to put few dots or squares where real decoration(if any) was.

Thank God for museums or we would completely "cartoonize" ancient world....

There are a few examples of full-size marble sculptures with detailed painted decoration on their helmets, so "the artist didn't have enough space" can't be used to argue against it.

[Nikic031]

You give proofs only from Makedonia and Hellenistic period...which is a whole different world compared to Classical or earlier periods.
I am sorry, I was under impression that this was more general and/or more Classical discussion.
I retreat. Hellenistic period is not of my interest...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

While it is not of your interest,it gives valuable information about the period you are indeed interested in. For in both periods painted helmets are depicted,only in the hellenistic period they are more detailed on tombs. And of course if they could do it with paints on 350 bc,i'm sure they could do it also in 450 bc. Not to mention that there is no hint that the attitude of soldiers changed in this period,with the second century ones liking colourful impressions more than the fifth century ones.
Khaire
Giannis

PS: by the way,there are indeed some vase depictions that show detailed decoration with geometric motifs.

[Polinik]

As for decoration issue,you know my opinion(at least for better payed and organized army).. ...
But I will admit that all kinds of decorations could and were applied throughout Greek army,that is huge number of people throughout centuries,and because of that it would not be smart to exclude anything,even checkered board or scales or other very simple and plain decorations..So I guess we now agree on this one,at least so some extent...

And I too think painted bronze curiass is plausible,to which extent practical,who knows..It would certainly not be a flawless paint job,very soon after being made,no matter how much you repair it.But painted(just for the meaning of word) it could be,and probably was in some cases.

ps: I dont think mind set was the same in 500 and 350BC...It's huge time even for slow ancient world. Look at some things that were required in archaic and classical period, icons of heroism, which completely died out even in 5th BC.

All best

[Matt Lukes]

I'd more wondered about aspides (correct plural?)- if I'm not mistaken, they're nearly if not definitely always shown with some kind of device on the face; the thin repousse devices are one explanation of course, but how it worked otherwise was confusing. Obvoiusly paint on one that's not covered with bronze is no issue, but clearly some were- so how did that work? Finding that, still to my complete surprise given the issues I've had with it eeven on wood and animal skin, casein paint does seem to work on copper alloy. So if one painted on shields, why not other types of armour? It was only the seeming physical issue (adherence) that I had reservations about- whether or not it would be considered desirable or the limitations with respect to lasting, are more matters of speculation, no? Whether the Greeks would have liked it or had problems with it coming off due to use and so on are rather more problematic to resolve...

The linseed oil paint doesn't seem to have done so well- it's mostly dry, but kind of peels off if I rub my thumb across it applying some pressure and it certainly scratches off. Really the casein is far better.

[Nikic031]

So if one painted on shields, why not other types of armour?

I think I learned from this forum that not all shields were bronze facing...
Maybe bronze ones were not even painted,especially because I believe some colors in vases, actually represent material,not paint.And some may have only be used for purpose of contrast...This is why I say after all, in three color painting you can not take anything for granted.

@Giannis K. Hoplite
When I said I am not interested in Hellenistic period I did not want to offend you.I see you are from Macedonia.
Don't know about attitude towards color,but attitude of soldiers in general changed heavily.That is exactly why I am not interested in that period.

[Dain II.]

I mentioned linseed-oil-paint and casein-paint because both worked very well on metall, iron as brass as bronze. Only, the linseed-oil needs much time to dry, a week or so. You can warm it up so it drys faster. And when you paint more layers of linseed-oil over the paint it get's like varnish. I use it also for painting and sealing the facings of my weapons, shields, armour, furnitures, tentpoles, unflexible leather or rawhidethings etc. I only have good experience until now.

And I find painted or sealed helmets, cuirasses and greaves very comfortable because you don't need to polish the corrision away after every event. Okay, the bronze and the iron isn't that shiny after sealing it with linseed-oil, it get's darker, browner, but why not?

lg Stephan