More glue - bah

[Astiryu1]

According to Tae Kwon Do history/legends wooden armor was was used in Korea. This is the reason for breaking boards as I was told. This was around 1500 years ago I think.

[rocktupac]

Evidently you are not familiar with Aristophanes’ play! This is wrong. In the play, after the priest is sent on his way and the protagonist looks to carry out the sacrifice of a goat himself, a poet in only a thin cloak interrupts and begs ‘alms’. To shut him up, Pisthetairos orders a slave to give him his ‘spolas’. The poet then complains he has a ‘spolas’ but no tunic. Pisthetairos obliges him once more by ordering the slave to give him his tunic, and then shoves him off-stage, so he can continue the sacrifice……

I have unknowingly confused my explanation a bit, but I an certainly familiar with the play. A priest's slave wearing armor? Seems a little odd. With my reading, I understand it to mean that the "slave" (I see a type of servant/helper and not actual slave) was wearing a tunic, as ordinary clothes, and his spolas -- or an animal hide shawl, wrapped around his neck and hanging from his shoulders. It does not need to be armor, and in fact it makes a bunch more sense if it is not. Likewise, giving a poet armor to keep him warm would seem odd to the audience I would think (it at least sounds highly peculiar to myself). I could be wrong, maybe priest's "slaves" walk around in leather armor???

[Paullus Scipio]

Scott wrote:

You missed the point again. Both passages speak of lamination techniques.

...I, and doubtless everyone else, didn't miss the point at all.....you are trying to say that because 'lamination' was known ( from mummies! ), it could have been used in ancient Classical Greece....that is about as far removed from actual evidence as it is possible to get ! :roll:

Incidently, it is likely that later 'aspides' were also 'laminated' like 'scuta'....but that, of course, like Polybius, is long after Tube-and-Yoke corselets became the norm...

Nowhere did I mention body armor.

...so no connection then? I'd agree with that! Egyptian mummy practices are no evidence of laminated glued body armour in Classical Greece! So what was the point of referring to it?

Likewise, giving a poet armor to keep him warm would seem odd to the audience I would think (it at least sounds highly peculiar to myself). I could be wrong, maybe priest's "slaves" walk around in leather armor???

...is there a point to this? It seems we are agreed now that priests are nothing to do with anything, and that the reference in the play is more likely to be to the older meaning of animal skin ( see my earlier post).
BTW, you've still got it wrong - Pistheitaros is not a priest!.....as you said...

Please read carefully before responding.

D lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dan Howard]

( i am referring to the similar use of Bamboo in the eastern world, China as well as Jomon Japan.)

I'm fairly certainy that there isn't a scrap of evidence to support Japanese bamboo armour. That myth was pretty solidly debunked over on ArmourArchive. I'm willing to bet that the Chinese never used it either.

[Dan Howard]

...so no connection then? I'd agree with that! Egyptian mummy practices are no evidence of laminated glued body armour in Classical Greece! So what was the point of referring to it?

It is the same reasoning that Connolly uses. If there is evidence of laminating anywhere then it is possible that the Greeks used it to make their armour. Absent any real evidence this is all that is left to prop up a specious theory.

[Dan Howard]

According to Tae Kwon Do history/legends wooden armor was was used in Korea. This is the reason for breaking boards as I was told. This was around 1500 years ago I think.

Pine boards (i.e. softwood) are used because they are a reasonable facsimile for a human rib. As a tae kwon practitioner for more than twenty years I can tell you that both take a blow of similar power to break. It is a good way to teach students the amount of power required to do some decent damage to a human being (it also looks impressive in front of spectators). It has nothing to do with Asian wooden armour, which incidentally was made of hardwood. Nothing a human can do with hands or feet would have much effect on a close-grained hardwood plank.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan wrote:

Absent any real evidence this is all that is left to prop up a specious theory.

...Yup! That's pretty much about the size of it!.........

And as a Shotokan Karate exponent of more than 30 years, I would endorse Dan's comments on the likelihood of "breaking armour"......

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Apparently you may not know which period in Japanese history i am speaking of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period

Its not the samurai era, nor close to it. As shotokan expert i would like to see you break 5 laminated bamboo halves, or one bamboo branch of 5 cm thickness.

Hardwood was indeed used as Dan states correctly and also the plywood story is of course convincing, and why it would probably not have been used.

its not just a theory, Japanese " wood " armour.

Ainu Armour:

seal-skin and bark.
(Sakhalin museum)

Iron Jomon (Kofun era 5th century BC) armour:



Ashigaru/peasant armour: wood (Top left image) :


Translation of japanese text accompanying the image:

"Bamboo suit of armour. For peasant footsoldier. Sengoku Jidai.

Originally owned by an old family household in Makioka Town. Bamboo armour uses a high quality hard bamboo Sane to protect the body instead of flat metal plates or Neri-kawa. With original Yoroi-bitsu."

OK, wood if iron is available is of course less valid. but to denounce it outright is, imho,
a mistake.

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Was there any thing riveted to the wood? I see what looks like rivets.
Was it covered in laccuered scales or leather? Or something?
I have a picture of a Japanese helmet that looks very much in style like a roman helmet, cheek piece style almost identical to some gallic styles.... :o

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The riveted armour is Iron, the wooden is laced, the Ainu is a combination of laced bark, seal skin, ivory etc.

Interested in the picture of the helmet with the cheek pieces!!

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

Translation of japanese text accompanying the image:

"Bamboo suit of armour. For peasant footsoldier. Sengoku Jidai.

Originally owned by an old family household in Makioka Town. Bamboo armour uses a high quality hard bamboo Sane to protect the body instead of flat metal plates or Neri-kawa. With original Yoroi-bitsu."

Kendo swords certainly seem able to take plenty of abuse. With a tensile strength of 28000 per square inch compared to steel's 23000 I'm not suprised.
http://www-users.rwth-aachen.de/Christo ... werke.html
http://bambus.rwth-aachen.de/eng/report ... index.html
http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/bambo ... eb1966.htm

A good video here: http://www.calibamboo.com/watchourvideos.html

[rocktupac]

Scott wrote:

You missed the point again. Both passages speak of lamination techniques.

...I, and doubtless everyone else, didn't miss the point at all.....you are trying to say that because 'lamination' was known ( from mummies! ), it could have been used in ancient Classical Greece....that is about as far removed from actual evidence as it is possible to get ! :roll:

I was not saying lamination was known from mummies, I was just pointing out that the technique the Egyptians were using to wrap the body was a form of lamination.

Nowhere did I mention body armor.

...so no connection then? I'd agree with that! Egyptian mummy practices are no evidence of laminated glued body armour in Classical Greece! So what was the point of referring to it?

See above explanation.

Likewise, giving a poet armor to keep him warm would seem odd to the audience I would think (it at least sounds highly peculiar to myself). I could be wrong, maybe priest's "slaves" walk around in leather armor???

...is there a point to this? It seems we are agreed now that priests are nothing to do with anything, and that the reference in the play is more likely to be to the older meaning of animal skin ( see my earlier post).
BTW, you've still got it wrong - Pistheitaros is not a priest!.....as you said...

I never said Pisthetaerus was a priest. I don't have it wrong. Read it again. Pisthetaerus orders a priest's slave (the priest is no longer around) to give the poet his (i.e. the slave's) spolas. Where is this wrong? The slave has a spolas and a tunic. My was point was that a priest's slave wearing armor (the spolas) is quite strange. What would a slave be doing wearing armor? How would this armor help to make the poet warm? This is better understood if the spolas were a crude animal hide slung from the shoulders. Then, a slave wearing an animal hide shawl around his neck and hanging from his shoulders, along with a tunic underneath, makes complete sense. Reading it this way, it also makes sense that the poet would complain after receiving only the spolas: an animal hide hanging from the shoulders would be mostly inadequate at covering the body and protecting against the cold. Therefore the poet hints at wanting the tunic as well. Pisthetaerus gives in and orders the slave to give the poet his tunic. So now the poet, who has a spolas and tunic taken from the slave, leaves. The sacrifice then commences.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The riveted armour is Iron, the wooden is laced, the Ainu is a combination of laced bark, seal skin, ivory etc.

Interested in the picture of the helmet with the cheek pieces!!

M.VIB.M.

Well, a little anyway.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

COOL!! its a nice type of facial half-armour, had not come across one with cheek-pieces yet!

also very special is this dog armour:



OK, back on topic LOL

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Henk wrote:

Its not the samurai era, nor close to it. As shotokan expert i would like to see you break 5 laminated bamboo halves, or one bamboo branch of 5 cm thickness.

...I think you misunderstand my post. I was agreeing with Dan that it is one thing to break pine boards, but quite another to try and break hardwood or bamboo armour ! hock:

Having an interest in all things Japanese, including arms and armour, I wouldn't dispute the existence of woden armour for a moment.....