01-19-2010, 12:19 AM
Dan wrote:
Yes, you are right, Dan! I should apologise if I sounded a little strident.....but I do get frustrated when entrenched opinion seems to ignore the evidence.
Henk wrote:
Paullus wrote:
To put this into context, this is 'the Age of the City-States'...Athens incurs the wrath of the Great King (498 BC) by supporting Ionian Greek rebels and the Persian Wars begin, lasting until roughly 465 BC when Xerxes is murdered in a coup. Meanwhile from the 470's Cimon 'liberates' the Aegean islands founding the Delian League - which rapidly becomes the Athenian empire. In Italy, Rome struggles with Etruscans to the North and encroaching 'Hill-tribes' of Volsci and Aequi to her East, aided by her fellow Latins of the Tiber valley. In Sicily, Gelon defeats Carthage. In China, the "age of the Warring States" begins and lasts over 250 years...The Peloponnesian wars are instigated by Athens growing aggression (459 BC- 404 BC). Around 450 BC, the Celtic 'La Tene' civilisation rises, and by 410 BC are migrating in all directions - including across the Alps into Italy. In 401 BC, Xenophon sets off with the 'Ten Thousand'......In 395 BC, Sparta confronts the rising power of Thebes and Boeotia. Meanwhile Rome makes its first conquest - the Etruscan city of Veii, across the Tiber, and pays its soldiers to campaign all year round for the first time.....In 390 BC, Rome is sacked by the Celts. By 371 BC Epaminondas breaks Spartan power once and for all at Leuktra....Carthage and the Greek cities of Sicily continue to struggle over the 'Great bread Basket'. 340 BC sees the rise of Philip of Macedon and at Chaeronea in 338 BC he defeats the combined might of Thebes and Athens... He is assassinated in 336, and Alexander succeeds, and proceeds to invade the Persian Empire, reaching India by 325 BC. Meanwhile in Italy Rome struggles in a series of Wars with the Samnites. By 323 BC Alexander is dead, and the Macedonian empire breaks up into the Hellenistic kingdoms, and the wars of the Diadochi/Successors drag on.....The 3C BC sees Rome dominate Italy, and then fight the first two Punic Wars, culminating in the defeat of Hannibal in 202 BC. The 2 C BC sees Rome turn her eyes East toward the glittering and rich Greek Hellenistic Kingdoms, still fighting among themselves ( e.g. Ptolemies and Seleucids at Raphia 217 BC, while Hannibal rampaged in Italy). Rome fights a series of Macedonian Wars (190 BC - 168 BC), destroying Macedon, then Antiochus and the Seleucid Empire. Carthage and Corinth are obliterated ( 146 BC). In China, the Han emperors rise, and expand their power under Wu Ti....
With the end of the Graeco-Macedonian States, the long history of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet comes to an end, and it disappears from History. Throughout the period, both leather 'spolades' in Greece and Italy, and in Asia minor and Persia 'thorakes hoi lineoi' were in use ( at least until Alexander's day), as we have seen.
Carthage (and perhaps Etruscans too, with their Middle East heritage) seem to have used linen also. ( According to Pausanias, Gelon of Syracuse dedicated three linen Carthaginian corselets at Olympia, after Himera in 480 BC - the same year Herodotus describes Phoenician marines in linen from the parent city).
AFIK, there is no mention of 'laminations' or 'glue' throughout the period, but perhaps those who wish to establish such a piece of equipment should be looking for evidence from Anatolia, Carthage and Phoenicia to support such a case.......OOps! Sorry again, guys, what started off as a short answer to Henk's question kinda ran away there......
Quote:I think Paul needs to sit down after that.:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, you are right, Dan! I should apologise if I sounded a little strident.....but I do get frustrated when entrenched opinion seems to ignore the evidence.
Henk wrote:
Quote:What era are we speaking about anyway? the entire archaic period? the hellenistic period?
Paullus wrote:
Quote:The earliest date for an unequivocal depiction of a Tube-and-Yoke corselet is by Exekias, variously stated as “born around 550 BC and floreat 530- 520 BC” and elsewhere “floreat 550-520 BC”, hence my rather casual “around 520 BC”, though elsewhere I have more correctly said “550-520 BC”
To put this into context, this is 'the Age of the City-States'...Athens incurs the wrath of the Great King (498 BC) by supporting Ionian Greek rebels and the Persian Wars begin, lasting until roughly 465 BC when Xerxes is murdered in a coup. Meanwhile from the 470's Cimon 'liberates' the Aegean islands founding the Delian League - which rapidly becomes the Athenian empire. In Italy, Rome struggles with Etruscans to the North and encroaching 'Hill-tribes' of Volsci and Aequi to her East, aided by her fellow Latins of the Tiber valley. In Sicily, Gelon defeats Carthage. In China, the "age of the Warring States" begins and lasts over 250 years...The Peloponnesian wars are instigated by Athens growing aggression (459 BC- 404 BC). Around 450 BC, the Celtic 'La Tene' civilisation rises, and by 410 BC are migrating in all directions - including across the Alps into Italy. In 401 BC, Xenophon sets off with the 'Ten Thousand'......In 395 BC, Sparta confronts the rising power of Thebes and Boeotia. Meanwhile Rome makes its first conquest - the Etruscan city of Veii, across the Tiber, and pays its soldiers to campaign all year round for the first time.....In 390 BC, Rome is sacked by the Celts. By 371 BC Epaminondas breaks Spartan power once and for all at Leuktra....Carthage and the Greek cities of Sicily continue to struggle over the 'Great bread Basket'. 340 BC sees the rise of Philip of Macedon and at Chaeronea in 338 BC he defeats the combined might of Thebes and Athens... He is assassinated in 336, and Alexander succeeds, and proceeds to invade the Persian Empire, reaching India by 325 BC. Meanwhile in Italy Rome struggles in a series of Wars with the Samnites. By 323 BC Alexander is dead, and the Macedonian empire breaks up into the Hellenistic kingdoms, and the wars of the Diadochi/Successors drag on.....The 3C BC sees Rome dominate Italy, and then fight the first two Punic Wars, culminating in the defeat of Hannibal in 202 BC. The 2 C BC sees Rome turn her eyes East toward the glittering and rich Greek Hellenistic Kingdoms, still fighting among themselves ( e.g. Ptolemies and Seleucids at Raphia 217 BC, while Hannibal rampaged in Italy). Rome fights a series of Macedonian Wars (190 BC - 168 BC), destroying Macedon, then Antiochus and the Seleucid Empire. Carthage and Corinth are obliterated ( 146 BC). In China, the Han emperors rise, and expand their power under Wu Ti....
With the end of the Graeco-Macedonian States, the long history of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet comes to an end, and it disappears from History. Throughout the period, both leather 'spolades' in Greece and Italy, and in Asia minor and Persia 'thorakes hoi lineoi' were in use ( at least until Alexander's day), as we have seen.
Carthage (and perhaps Etruscans too, with their Middle East heritage) seem to have used linen also. ( According to Pausanias, Gelon of Syracuse dedicated three linen Carthaginian corselets at Olympia, after Himera in 480 BC - the same year Herodotus describes Phoenician marines in linen from the parent city).
AFIK, there is no mention of 'laminations' or 'glue' throughout the period, but perhaps those who wish to establish such a piece of equipment should be looking for evidence from Anatolia, Carthage and Phoenicia to support such a case.......OOps! Sorry again, guys, what started off as a short answer to Henk's question kinda ran away there......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
