REALLY curious thing about the Caetra shield

[Caturix]

In "Los Celtiberos" of Alberto J. Lorrio I read a quite curious thing.

The bosses (umbos) of the caetras were fixed to the body of the shield by a single rivet that passed IN THE CENTER OF THE UMBO.

Consequently, I argue, the hollow rear part of the umbo could'nt be used to receive the hand holding the shield, due to it was in fact "closed" by the surface of the shield itself.

That puzzled me a lot: probably, the shield body was quite convex in shape, due to create a convenient space between the hand that holds it and the inner surface.. but WHY an umbo, if it actually didnt recieve the hand?

[M. Demetrius]

Tradition? If the curve of the shield is very convex, a handle in the plane of the shield is off balance, so the hand grip must needs move further from the surface to achieve balance. Strange umbo you describe, though. Is there a picture of that one?

[Medicus matt]

In "Los Celtiberos" of Alberto J. Lorrio I read a quite curious thing.

The bosses (umbos) of the caetras were fixed to the body of the shield by a single rivet that passed IN THE CENTER OF THE UMBO.

Consequently, I argue, the hollow rear part of the umbo could'nt be used to receive the hand holding the shield, due to it was in fact "closed" by the surface of the shield itself.

That puzzled me a lot: probably, the shield body was quite convex in shape, due to create a convenient space between the hand that holds it and the inner surface.. but WHY an umbo, if it actually didnt recieve the hand?

When it talks of 'umbos', is it referring to the decorative brass studs/bosses found on the faces of these shields, rather than the big central boss? I've seen these referred to as umbos before and they would be fastened to the board of the shield by a single rivet.

[Caturix]

When it talks of 'umbos', is it referring to the decorative brass studs/bosses found on the faces of these shields, rather than the big central boss? I've seen these referred to as umbos before and they would be fastened to the board of the shield by a single rivet.

No...unfortunatly Lorrio is speaking about a big central umbo... it's THAT that puzzle me...

[Medicus matt]

WHY an umbo, if it actually didnt recieve the hand?

Because punching someone in the face with a lump of iron is much more effective than hitting them with a plank of wood?
Bosses are also useful when parrying your opponents weapon.

Any pictures of these bosses though? It's not a period or culture I know a great deal about. Maybe the shields were carried like a hoplon rather than gripped by a central handle, or are there finds of bosses and grips that negate that option?

[Caturix]

You can download free the book of Lorrio wit all the archaeologica designs of the necropolis at:
http://www.filestube.com/3265b9bb1c2250 ... ibros.html

However, the caetra shields are with an handle.

Thank you for your time.

[Peroni]

Typical Caetra grip bars..



No evidence of a central rivet on this example...

[Caturix]

No evidence of a central rivet on this example...

Don't know what to say... actually Lorrio says that the caetra shields of Aguilar de Anguita, Alpanseque, and Griegos (that I believe is the one that you posted) are fixed wit a central single rivet on the umbo (in bronze or in iron), that fixed the Umbo to the body of the shield.

In this one, that is in iron and vith star-shaped reinforcement, you can see the central hole for the rivet.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Would there be a wooden umbo underneath, like the spina on some Republican scutum?

[Medicus matt]

Would there be a wooden umbo underneath, like the spina on some Republican scutum?

Just what I was thinking. That star shaped one looks like it goes over something like a hollow wooden boss to reinforce it. It'd be no damn use on it's own.

[Caturix]

Unfortunately all the depictions of caetra (that actually we don't know if it was in wood or in leather) shows just a round shield with the boss on it.

[Thersites]

Caetrae were -probably- leather before the 5th century BC; wooden (about 12 mm. thick at the rim) later, both in Iberia and Celtiberia. Probably leather for much longer in Gallaecia
The iron -not bronze- umbo (shield boss) in Iberia and Celtiberia is usually round, with rivets along its outer perimeter in the early examples.
Some later types in the Western Meseta (vaccaei, vettones) have a central rivet that fitted the metal part of the umbo to a wooden core of roughly hemispherical shape. But this accounts only for a small proportion of iron bosses.

BTW, I would appreciate if you mention the (academic) site (mine) you took the pictures from.

[Caturix]

Thank you very much Thersites!

Obviously, the photo is from www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/index.htm

However I'm still quite puzzled.

Lorrio states that the most ancient model of shield in the zones of Alto Tajo and Alto Jalòn, is with a bronze boss fixed with central rivet, and after that, with iron boss fixed in the same manner.

He says almost the same for the material form the Alto Duero and Eastern Meseta (Meseta Orientàl).

He writes that the first shields with the umbo fixed with rivets on the outer perimeter in Alto Jalòn are form III a.C., while in the necropolis from Alto Duero we can find them in the same period but sometimes they present the central rivet too.

Is this correct?

However, the wooden core of hemispherical shape that you describe is something like a central wooden umbo?

Thank you for your time.

[Thersites]

Yes, you are right. I was talking about the really functional iron bosses (=umbones) from the early part of the 4th c. onwards. Before that, there exist a series of Iberian and Celtiberian 'tachones', much larger, mostly decorative, thin, embossed bronze sheet pieces with a central rivet and probably also glued along the outer rim. These early examples were fitted to a wooden core that acted as a true functional umbo (boss) (i.e., strenght and possible use as an active, offensive, punching weapon. Some -but only some- of the later iron bosses, much stronger, followed this tradition, and also were still fixed to a wwooden core that reinforced the central part over the handgrip, but leaving space for it. Please also note that the long metal handgrip you depicted is nort Celtibertian but Iberian, and only rerely found in Meseta cemeteries. So Caesar and Medicus were right in their appreciations.

[Caturix]

Thank you very much.

But there is any avidence of the wooden bosses beneath th umbo?