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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote:Good point about the IInd moving towards P, not vice versa, though.
Pretty fundamental and one I think Tacitus is clear-ish on.
There is no problem in Paulinus moving towards his expected reinforcements (whichever direction they were coming from). It makes sense militarily that he should link up with them as quickly as possible. Moreover, his scouts would be telling him that the enemy was moving up behind him, so he was being forced in that direction anyway. So far as Postumus is concerned, it indeed seems that he refused to move but, as time went on, he would be receiving a constant stream of increasingly angry orders demanding that he march out and, if he still refused, I would imagine that Paulinus would send an officer to relieve him of his command.

The difficulty with the northern route is that it would be a withdrawal into hostile territory. We know from Tacitus that Paulinus pressed through the midst of the enemy to reach London. If he was the cautious general we are told he was and knowing the hazards, it is unlikely that he would have gambled that he would be able to march back in that direction unmolested, particularly if he was accompanied by civilians whose protection he had assumed. Clearly, he had to make some hard choices but withdrawing into the territory of Cogidubnus, whose constant loyalty Tacitus was later to praise in the Agricola, seems the best option. There he could take the time he needed to consolidate his forces, the Second Legion coming along the Fosse Way, possibly troops from North Wales coming down Watling Street and the Fosse and maybe further forces from South Wales crossing the Severn at Gloucester and joining the Fosse Way at Cirencester. Spending that time in hostile country in the north would have rendered him constantly vulnerable to attack until he had assembled sufficient troops to deter any possible enemy assault.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Quote:Cogidubnus, whose constant loyalty Tacitus was later to praise in the Agricola, seems the best option.

Prasutagus was also loyal to Rome. His people, however, were clearly not Wink

The power of allied kings over their people could not be trusted - Paulinus was in potential enemy territory whichever way he went.
Nathan Ross
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Nathan wrote:

Prasutagus was also loyal to Rome. His people, however, were clearly not

Prasutagus and his people were all quite happy between AD47- AD59 / 60 until he died. In fact they were supposed to be allies of Rome since Caesar and were even happy between AD43 / AD47 until the Romans took away their weapons for no reason that the Iceni could see (Scapula). Basically whenever the Romans stole from the Iceni they got upset.I can understand that! (Of course having your queen whipped, her daughters raped and the aristocracy turned into slaves probably had a bit of an effect too...)

The Trinovantes got upset with the Romans when the Veterans took away their lands......

The Atrebates were allied to Rome from the beginning of the invasion what with Verica and Cogidubnus being Clent Kings; it was Verica who invited the Romans in the first place having been replaced by Caracatus - definitely not a Roman supporter.....

I think that it is key that Cogidubnus was rewarded with greater lands rather than just left in power. This would indicate some extraordinary service to the Roman State. I think that we can say that this was probably the only safe place for SP and his army in Southern Britain east of the Fosse Way.

Of course once Cogidubnus died his lands were absorbed into the Province as I understand it....

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Quote:His people, however, were clearly not
True, after his widow had been flogged, his daughters raped, his nobles' lands seized and his relatives treated like slaves.


Quote:Paulinus was in potential enemy territory whichever way he went.
If I were to accept your premise (which I do not), there is still a difference between potential (in the west) and certain (in the north). Given such a choice, the lesser of the evils is the potential but be on one's guard.

EDIT: Sorry, Deryk. We have made the same point. I must have been working on my post while you were posting yours.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Hi Renatus

No problem at all....

The feeling you get from the texts is that many tribes rose up not just the Iceni and the trinovantes.

I think that the 230,000 were made up of many tribes gathering to Boudica and the Trinovantes against the Romans.

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Quote:I think that the 230,000 were made up of many tribes gathering to Boudica and the Trinovantes against the Romans.
This may well be so, although the figure is almost certainly greatly exaggerated. I am sure, however, that there will have been a variety of reactions to the crisis amongst the tribes. Some may have openly backed one side or the other, although I rather suspect that those prepared to support Rome in this way may have been in the minority. Some will have sat on the fence, ready to side with the rebels or the Romans, depending upon which gained the upper hand. In others, the young hotheads would have been clamouring to join the rebels but were held in check by the elders. In yet others, there may have been a palpable hostility to Rome, although no action was actually taken.

In this volatile situation, Cogidubnus may have been the one British leader upon whom Paulinus felt he could rely. I am not sure that we know when he received his rewards and the Roman citizenship. I have read that it could have been under either Claudius or Nero. If the former, he may have felt a debt of gratitude to Rome which guaranteed his loyalty and his privileges would probably have made him an object of hatred for the rebels; if the latter, they may have been his reward for his steadfastness during the rebellion.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(Just a quick note as I'm trying to keep a low profile on this thread from now on!)


Quote:the figure is almost certainly greatly exaggerated.

There's an interesting note in Caesar's Gallic War (1.29) of the accurate numbers of the five migrating Helvetic tribes he fought in 58BC: 368,000, of which 92,000 (i.e. one in four) could bear arms. This is supposedly based on a Greek document found in the enemy camp.

Dio says (at least in the standard English translation) that his high figure represents Boudica's 'army' of 'men'. But it could be the number of the whole host, including families etc.

If we apply the same arithmetic to Dio's figure, then, we arrive at 57,500 warriors. A not implausible number, perhaps...
Nathan Ross
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Hi Nathan and Renatus

I can agree with both of these posts..... :? and think that a combination of the two will probably lead us nearer to the amounts but to be honest as much as I would like to stick to the texts I think that they are inaccurate.

I do think that many warriors joined Boudica on her mission and it would have been logical for the Iceni and the Trinovantes to have had a baggage train for support . Dio states that she starts off with 120,000 and increases to 230,000 people.

Regarding Caesar’s observations, the Helvetica tribes were migrating and so this was a host made up of whole families including children and babies. I don’t think that would have been the case in this instance. Probably old men and women drove the wagons.

Obviously the baggage train consisted of cattle (perhaps the oxen pulling the wagons?).

If we take Nathan’s figures of 58,000 warriors that would leave a baggage train manned by 172,000 people. If we took 5 to a wagon that would be around 34,000 wagons. Each wagon with its oxen would have been about 20 foot long.

If they were in rows 10 abreast (100 feet or more) the length of the baggage train alone would have been about 13.5 miles without taking into account the main part of the army with its chariots, horses and men.

Also regarding the people slaughtered in Colchester, London and St Albans – 70,000. Obviously Colchester took the brunt but how many were living there in the first place? In London most people had gone – certainly the rich and the “noblest of ladies” and at St Albans they had all fled.

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Hi All

If we say that the baggage train is large, are we really saying that although this was a great victory in the terms of being the turning point in the war that the main casualties were in fact the baggage train and perhaps the main warriors; the rest of the "horde" scattered to their homes but too late to plant the winter wheat.

We know that this was just one battle in the war, that many tribes stayed "under arms" and that the next few Governors were charged with getting the Province back under control using diplomacy.....

So that although 80,000 were lost 150,000 escaped!

If that is the case CS and Dunstable are still viable.....(if you believe the Northern route.

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Hi Nathan / Renatus / John

Looking at Mancetter again it is obvious that in this configuration would not work for the Romans - the cuneus would not have broken the line.

In fact it looks possible to surround the Romans.

Nathan, this is more your forte.....

Kind Regards - Deryk


[attachment=5217]MANCETTERBATTLE.pdf[/attachment]


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Deryk
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Quote:So that although 80,000 were lost 150,000 escaped!

If that is the case CS and Dunstable are still viable.....(if you believe the Northern route.
I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't understand the logic. How does the number that escaped affect the location of the battle?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus wrote:


I'm sorry if I'm being dense but I don't understand the logic. How does the number that escaped affect the location of the battle?


Sorry - I wasn't being very clear.....

One (and only one) of my objections (apart from the location) to the suitability of these sites was that the topography allowed lots of people to escape. If 150,000 escaped this does not matter. I still believe that the site was in the West (at Cunetio).

I am still of the opinion that refugees would not march into a hostile area and therefore on this alone (apart from a number of other reasons much of which you have stated) leads me to believe that they would have gone away from the East of the Country....

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Quote:I am not sure that we know when he [Cogidubnus] received his rewards and the Roman citizenship. I have read that it could have been under either Claudius or Nero.
Having looked at the Agricola again, it seems that Cogidubnus was awarded additional civitates sometime between the invasion and the governorship of Didius Gallus. From his Roman names, he could have been granted citizenship then or later.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus wrote:

it seems that Cogidubnus was awarded additional civitates sometime between the invasion and the governorship of Didius Gallus.

In that case I presume the point is that he was very friendly with the Romans. Tacitus re-inforces this when he says that he was loyal "down to our times" which implies a "special relationship" that he was able to broker for those he ruled over.

So SP would have felt safe entering his lands and also Boudica would have no problem invading the Atrebates territories.

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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That's certainly what I think.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply


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