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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Renatus wrote:

Well, with a change of assumption here and the addition or deduction of an event there, you, Nathan and I have managed to create four different scenarios.

Totally agree but you have to take in cause and effect in all of this. For instance the cause of the message being sent to Colchester in the first place in Nathan’s scenario (not mine) is the Muster. The effect is the message being sent on to Catus etc. So there are certain timescales which follow on:

You have the Iceni having their tribal assembly on May the 20th. If this was the muster then even using oxen to travel the 50 miles to Colchester they would have been there by the 27th.

I am not convinced however that the Iceni would have their families with them at Colchester with the wagons even in this scenario. If they travelled as an army they could have easily carried a few days supplies and have been there in 3 days even with oxen in attendance.

For argument’s sake let’s say that they did take their families and oxen; it took 7 days (27th May) add 2 days (29th May) for the destruction of Colchester. If they plundered Colchester for 2 days (31st May) then travelled to Chelmsford 2 days (2nd June) plundered the Chelmsford area 1 day (3rd June) then travelled the last 30 miles to London in 3 days they would have entered London on the 6th of June. Five days before SP arrived on your figures.

So even with the most extreme timescales which includes the families and oxen and looting etc. They would have beaten Paulinus to London.

If London was a key objective to them I beleive that they would have bypassed Colchester and attacked an undefended London much earlier.

I have a completely different theory as you know and am only trying to show that the Brython’s main target was not London.

Renatus wrote:

I think that these rates of travel are unrealistic. The British forces were accompanied by families in wagons. A proportion, at least, of these, I would suggest, was ox-drawn. Oxen require eight hours a day to feed and another eight hours to digest. If worked for more than five hours a day, they need several days to recouperate. They are also slow: two miles an hour would be an average speed. On this basis, Nathan's estimate for the British force's rate of progress as being a maximum of ten miles a day is spot-on.

Totally agree with you.

However Nathan’s estimate that it would take 16 days from the “borders” of the Iceni Homeland to Colchester is not correct, this would have taken at most 3 days to do the 15 or so miles.

Renatus wrote:

There are, it seems to me, a number of problems inherent in the idea of the British forces returning to their homelands after the fall of Colchester and the defeat of the Ninth Legion. I will set out those that occur to me; others may be able to think of more.

1. The sources give no suggestion of the Iceni and others returning home. They give the impression of a non-stop rampage.

I agree that they did not go back either but in that case why did they turn back to face Cerealis? Or did Cerealis come across them outside Colchester and attack them anyway knowing that he was out numbered 10 to 1?

I am not sure that it was a non stop rampage of land but the destruction of cities. It would seem as they were fighting in their own homelands that it was the destruction of the Roman population and stealing of their riches and the regaining of their homesteads.

Renatus wrote:

2. Tacitus states that the Iceni, the Trinovantes and other tribes conspired to regain their freedom. This would not have been achieved by simply destroying one town and only two of the tribes, the Iceni and the Trinovantes, recovering their lands. The other tribes would have had something to say, if the rebellion seemed to have ended there.


This seems to imply that you think that the Iceni and Trinovantes were joined by other tribes at Colchester or London or both. Am I understanding you correctly?

Renatus wrote:

3. The theory is incompatible with subsequent events. If it were true, there seem to be three possibilities. First, the tribes wait in their homelands for Paulinus to react. In this event, London is not under threat and there is no need to abandon it. Paulinus has simply to sit tight, gather his reinforcements (ensuring that they obey orders this time) and, when he has sufficient forces, counter-attack. Secondly, Paulinus anticipates that the rebels will eventually march on London and decides to abandon it immediately. It might be some days before the rebels realise this and there would be a further several days of march before they reach the town. By this time, Paulinus would have put a good many days of travel between him and the enemy and there would be no prospect of their catching him up. Thirdly, Paulinus remains in London and the rebels lose patience and march on the town. Again, it would take several days for them to get there and Paulinus would have plenty of warning of their approach. He would be able to evacuate the town in good time and, again, put a substantial distance between him and them before they reach London. Once again, the rebels would be unable to catch him up. In none of these cases, therefore, would Paulinus have been forced to give battle before he was adequately reinforced.

I am not quite sure that I have got the gist of this..... but I will have a go....

3a. If the Iceni and Trinovantes are waiting for Paulinus in their homelands you are correct in stating that London is not under threat but how long can Paulinus stay in one place from a food point of view? He has a small army and Londoners to feed. If he waits for re-inforcements where are they coming from?

If the Second will not come how can he force them? So he is constantly exposed. I surmise that the Roman Army is severely stretched with some of the Second in Exeter, some of the Second in the Lentwardine area the Ninth partially destroyed or on the Brigantian Border, some of the Fourteenth on the Welsh Border at Wroxeter and the Twentieth at Usk and Gloucester holding down rebellious tribes. The Veterans of the Twentieth are in Cirencester or Bath.

His small army comprises of part of the Fourteenth Battle Group after Anglesey of some 7,000 men. But this small army would require some feeding......

3b. If he decides that he cannot advance against them and feels that they will advance against him he has a strategic withdrawal. – Totally agree – he regains the advantage.

3c. Paulinus remains in London – the rebels advance – he withdraws as before and re-gains the advantage

You are right he is only under threat if the rebels are on their way to London already but I expect that food is the main immediate problem here.

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Calling all armchair generals! - by Ensifer - 03-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 12:02 AM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 08:36 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 08-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Deryk - 10-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-08-2014, 01:50 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-11-2014, 02:03 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-18-2014, 07:54 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-20-2014, 02:37 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-25-2014, 08:29 AM

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