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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Nathan Ross wrote:

Hard, therefore, to estimate how much ground a tight-packed moving mass of nearly 60,000 would occupy - any clues?

A bit like you really, very difficult to quantify and what was the make up? How many chariots were there? How many on foot (or mounted?) Were they all warriors or some just the farmers? Was the baggage train just that ? In which case the ratios would not have been 4:1 and there would have been far fewer in the baggage train (75,000) and 150,000 in the field.

If it was 60,000 I think that the width fits (just) the valley at a densely 3 foot per man which would give a depth of about 50 rows (obviously not in a “battle order”) but that is packed together and very generous.

Your remark "and therefore occupy less ground man for man.” in this case is possibly not correct as the Romans formed into the cuneis formation which was shoulder to shoulder and 8 to 10 men deep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_...-02127.jpg :twisted:

Anything over this and I think that unless you have woods on both sides of the valley the Brythons would have spread out much farther.

I also think that for the Brythons to have been trapped, the woods would again to have been on both sides of the valley after SP had advanced his army the steepness of the hills can be easily walked or run up and many could have escaped.

To say that the Brythons would have run back to defend the baggage train is hopeful and often baggage trains in conflicts are lost but the army survives.

If to contain the Brythons the valley would have been wooded the cavalry cannot charge from the hills and encircle them.

Deryk wrote:

Regarding Mike Bishop's teaser about the Dorking Gap


Nathan Ross wrote:

(ahum!) - although others have mentioned it before, just not here...

Right – set up for a patsy then!!!!!

Deryk wrote:
Only problem is that it has a river in it


Nathan Ross wrote:

True, but the river's on the flank rather than across the field. It might work, if the Roman line was well south, at the upper end of the Denbies estate. This would give a battlefield of approx 1km square, with the northern end hemmed in by hill slopes and the curve of the river.

I did check and the river crosses the valley not once but twice and goes all the way down the part where the Roman Army would have been drawn up and advancing.

Apart from that a hugely impressive site.

Deryk wrote:
auxilliaries in the forts near Leith Hill


Renatus wrote:

Which are they?

Oops – probably iron age on reflection :oops:


Deryk wrote:

You mention that the distance from the borders of the Iceni homeland is only 40 miles but from Thetford more like 75 miles and from Colchester more like 90 miles.


John 1 wrote:

I based the Iceni territory on this;
en.wikipedia.org/iki/Iceni

If the Brits mustered at Hunsbury that makes the distance to their territory equate to Northampton-Cambridge ie 55 miles on the AA route planner;

www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp

so as the crow flies 40 miles doesn't seem too far off the mark.


Actually to CS from Cambridge, on the Eastern edge of Iceni territory) is 50 miles as the crow flies (using Google Earth) and still 90 miles from Colchester where presumably the Trinovantes would have been, or are you proposing that it was only the Iceni who attacked SP?


John 1 wrote:


The main point is that Colchester, Dunstable and CS are all in a similar scale of distance from where we know the Iceni to have been, the western sites are all clearly much further away, twice as far away. The distance argument Deryk makes depends on the Iceni, with families, being in London and St Albans, we simply don't know this. I would contend that there is a fair chance that the Iceni families never went on the parade.

I agree that the Iceni would not have gone “lock stock and barrel” after SP and that this was a baggage train attached to the army with some camp followers.

I also agree that the distance is a problem for the credibility of the Western sites but as far as Dunstable is concerned it is still only 13 miles shorter to Dunstable from London than from London to Silchester. Obviously if they were going to Church Stowe from London it would have been 65 miles and to Cunetio 70 miles.

I am also not quite sure if you think that the Iceni went to Colchester, then to London back to their homes and then regrouped to attack SP at Church Stowe?

If so that is a longer journey than to Cunetio. Of course is there was a Second Iceni Army that overcomes the problem.

Nathan Ross wrote:

Well, not me either really! Just a bit of Devil's advocacy. But I think it's worthwhile to float alternatives, however unlikely - stops the debate getting bogged down and helps us refine our terms.

Good idea

Nathan Ross wrote:

That would appear to be the pattern in regions where large numbers of camps have been traced (ie Scotland, principally) - multi-camp 'complexes' do exist, but most of these are from different eras rather than contemporary. The main legion force would almost certainly have arrived with Paulinus, probably with a few accompanying auxiliary units.

There may have been additional cohorts joining them later, which might have set up smaller camps or annexes, but you'd still be looking for a large central compound.

Then again, since we have few if any marching camps from south-east England anyway, perhaps they had some other way of doing things down there?


Interesting point.

Surprisngly Cunetio does have room Confusedmile:

John 1 wrote:

yep but there's quite a lot not in the sources isn't there.

Best observation so far!

Vindex wrote:

If it isn't in the sources then it is either supported by something else (excavation or later reference) or,sadly, not at all (sites with rivers as a dominant feature for example).

Looks like Cunetio, Mancetter and Dorking are out of the equation then (and my apologies it isn’t the River Anker that is navigable but the Coventry Canal but the Anker is still in the Battle Site at Mancetter and between the fort and SP)

So that still leaves us with CS and Dunstable.... although perhaps Vindex and Renatus have other preferred sites?

(I'll keep looking for a western alternative) :wink:

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Re: Calling all armchair generals! - by Ensifer - 03-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 12:02 AM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 08:36 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 08-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-08-2014, 01:50 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-11-2014, 02:03 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-18-2014, 07:54 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-20-2014, 02:37 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-25-2014, 08:29 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Deryk - 11-10-2012, 10:57 PM

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