(Tuesday, October 12th, 2021, 09:47 am)Hanny Wrote:
There are 7 principle* recent Uk works on the subject only one has the whole Army with P go to London...
Yes i left him out, (the late Fuentes was a good archologist but out of his depth in explaining militry matter) as he his march to London is a fantasy that no competent mil commander would attempt to do in the time frame he uses, P being described by T as" Rather, he preferred a "cautious, well considered plan to the luck of the gambler''
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"Paulinus was in Anglesey when news of the revolt reached him - having captured the island he was in the process of installing a garrison and cutting down the sacred groves1". He immediately took ship, perhaps to Chester"
Here he tells us the Army,( now grown to 2 Legions plus Aux leaving the Welsh frontier empty of troops) which includes Cav as they swam to Angsey but cant swim to Chester, is in Angelsey, which he leaves there and sails to Chester. ( he invents Chester as Dio is only one to use sail and he has P sail to london) He then tells us "A grave tactical error would have been committed if Paulinus had indeed separated himself from his infantry" But has P make exactly that error. He does not know when P get news of Cerialis defeat but he has him in Chester to hear it, so has to relay his orders back to the Army creating further delay as only at that point in time does he know something's gone wrong, since any messengers from S E roman Britain were looking for him in Angelsey, changing his location presents a further delay in them reaching him.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"The location from which Paulinus set out is unknown, but as the Roman Army's normal rate of marching appears to have been 20 Roman miles a day29, 13 days to cover the 250 miles (400 km) from Anglesey seems reasonable; perhaps it might have been only 9 days or less if he set out from Chester (180 miles1290 km). Paulinusarrived in Londinium before the rebels, perhaps only justbefore, to find that the 2nd Legion had not arrived"
13 days from Angelsey is not reasonable because at 18mpd its 14 days not 13, 180 miles Chester to london is 10 days, not 9 and has zero rest days, so he has P do what no other Roman general ever attempted to do, how/when/why did the Army go to Chester in the first place, to take 9 days to get to london using 9 days to help your Roman movement rates comparative to Iceni, is the only way for that to happen, no, we are told the army is in Angelsey and moves from there in response to the revolt, so both Roman and Iceni movement rates start from then. So a messenger has to get to P to decide what to do, and the army does it from Angelsey, so being in Chester merely adds a 1/2 days to orders to it from Chester, being a cautouse man he may have ordered it to march to Chester and join him, 60 miles away, then it goes to london 190 miles away, so 250 miles is still 14 days reaction time with no rest days, to an Iceni who can reach it before then, he even tells us a large section of the march, is through hostile land of the Catuvellauni, means he is marching is ripe for ambush after crossing the Avon, hasa supply line now going througha hostile region, so spends over 100 of those miles with both through hostile land. Sounds like a tactical error waiting to happen and the plan of a gambler, the very opposite of how T describes P being. Caeser managed 16mpd in Gaul, which was mostly hostile to his movements, and had rest days, to march all week is to require a supply service of MTV, as even by ww2 Germany still had to rest a day a week as it relied on so many horse elements.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"If the Roman Army's marching rate was indeed 20 Roman miles a day, then it must be supposed that the rebel's rate was very much 'less"
Supposed only in terms of his timeline.
He relies on Iceni movement rates being lower than Roman, as they have 60 miles to cover to get to london, "it is interesting to note that in Marlborough's time a daily average marching distance of between eight and ten miles was considered good" But Marbrough was faster as he lived of others food he moved onto, just as the iceni are planning to do, so will be moving faster not slower as they move onto supply rather than be pushed forward by supply.
He uses Chandler, who is referring to marching distances through hostile lands, pushed from supply behind, and how Marlborough 14mpd through friendly lands was remarkable, but no one hada 4:1 movement ratio advantage in that period, Marlborough was the fastest and he had 2:1 over the slowest from moving onto supply.
However when doing so through friendly land https://www.jstor.org/stable/44225601?re...b_contents see page 108 In Marlborough time you march 4 days, 12 miles, moving onto food water waiting for you and then rest totally different way to march in a day. See Crevald https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supplying-War-L...0521546575 detailing 12 to 14 mpd for Marbrough and how it was achieved.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"a very different model for these episodes: the prudent Paulinus having left behind a suitable force to hold the newly-won areas in North Wales (say, something of the order of half of the20th Legion together with auxiliaries)"
Angelsey had to be re conquerd by Agricola and was Roman free for decades after the revolt, so since P wins then Angelsey wont need to be reconqurerd, which since it was means its made up and can be ignored.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"How far west Paulinus marched is a moot point. A mounted messenger sent to locate the 2nd Legior, should have been able to reach Exeter and return within three days, only to report that the unit was still stuck in its fortress 172 miles (275 km) away"
Anothr false premise, 340 miles in 3 days is 120mpd.
There are 7 principle* recent Uk works on the subject only one has the whole Army with P go to London...
(10-07-2021, 06:19 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: You left out Nicholas Fuentes, who also argued very persuasively for the march to London (Graham Webster's reply to Fuentes could offer little real objection).
With no disrespect to (some of) the authors you mention, I believe this idea of Paulinus going on reconnaissance down to London is faulty, and our ten years of discussion on this thread have conclusively demonstrated that.
Yes i left him out, (the late Fuentes was a good archologist but out of his depth in explaining militry matter) as he his march to London is a fantasy that no competent mil commander would attempt to do in the time frame he uses, P being described by T as" Rather, he preferred a "cautious, well considered plan to the luck of the gambler''
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"Paulinus was in Anglesey when news of the revolt reached him - having captured the island he was in the process of installing a garrison and cutting down the sacred groves1". He immediately took ship, perhaps to Chester"
Here he tells us the Army,( now grown to 2 Legions plus Aux leaving the Welsh frontier empty of troops) which includes Cav as they swam to Angsey but cant swim to Chester, is in Angelsey, which he leaves there and sails to Chester. ( he invents Chester as Dio is only one to use sail and he has P sail to london) He then tells us "A grave tactical error would have been committed if Paulinus had indeed separated himself from his infantry" But has P make exactly that error. He does not know when P get news of Cerialis defeat but he has him in Chester to hear it, so has to relay his orders back to the Army creating further delay as only at that point in time does he know something's gone wrong, since any messengers from S E roman Britain were looking for him in Angelsey, changing his location presents a further delay in them reaching him.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"The location from which Paulinus set out is unknown, but as the Roman Army's normal rate of marching appears to have been 20 Roman miles a day29, 13 days to cover the 250 miles (400 km) from Anglesey seems reasonable; perhaps it might have been only 9 days or less if he set out from Chester (180 miles1290 km). Paulinusarrived in Londinium before the rebels, perhaps only justbefore, to find that the 2nd Legion had not arrived"
13 days from Angelsey is not reasonable because at 18mpd its 14 days not 13, 180 miles Chester to london is 10 days, not 9 and has zero rest days, so he has P do what no other Roman general ever attempted to do, how/when/why did the Army go to Chester in the first place, to take 9 days to get to london using 9 days to help your Roman movement rates comparative to Iceni, is the only way for that to happen, no, we are told the army is in Angelsey and moves from there in response to the revolt, so both Roman and Iceni movement rates start from then. So a messenger has to get to P to decide what to do, and the army does it from Angelsey, so being in Chester merely adds a 1/2 days to orders to it from Chester, being a cautouse man he may have ordered it to march to Chester and join him, 60 miles away, then it goes to london 190 miles away, so 250 miles is still 14 days reaction time with no rest days, to an Iceni who can reach it before then, he even tells us a large section of the march, is through hostile land of the Catuvellauni, means he is marching is ripe for ambush after crossing the Avon, hasa supply line now going througha hostile region, so spends over 100 of those miles with both through hostile land. Sounds like a tactical error waiting to happen and the plan of a gambler, the very opposite of how T describes P being. Caeser managed 16mpd in Gaul, which was mostly hostile to his movements, and had rest days, to march all week is to require a supply service of MTV, as even by ww2 Germany still had to rest a day a week as it relied on so many horse elements.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"If the Roman Army's marching rate was indeed 20 Roman miles a day, then it must be supposed that the rebel's rate was very much 'less"
Supposed only in terms of his timeline.
He relies on Iceni movement rates being lower than Roman, as they have 60 miles to cover to get to london, "it is interesting to note that in Marlborough's time a daily average marching distance of between eight and ten miles was considered good" But Marbrough was faster as he lived of others food he moved onto, just as the iceni are planning to do, so will be moving faster not slower as they move onto supply rather than be pushed forward by supply.
He uses Chandler, who is referring to marching distances through hostile lands, pushed from supply behind, and how Marlborough 14mpd through friendly lands was remarkable, but no one hada 4:1 movement ratio advantage in that period, Marlborough was the fastest and he had 2:1 over the slowest from moving onto supply.
However when doing so through friendly land https://www.jstor.org/stable/44225601?re...b_contents see page 108 In Marlborough time you march 4 days, 12 miles, moving onto food water waiting for you and then rest totally different way to march in a day. See Crevald https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supplying-War-L...0521546575 detailing 12 to 14 mpd for Marbrough and how it was achieved.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"a very different model for these episodes: the prudent Paulinus having left behind a suitable force to hold the newly-won areas in North Wales (say, something of the order of half of the20th Legion together with auxiliaries)"
Angelsey had to be re conquerd by Agricola and was Roman free for decades after the revolt, so since P wins then Angelsey wont need to be reconqurerd, which since it was means its made up and can be ignored.
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc...11_317.pdf
"How far west Paulinus marched is a moot point. A mounted messenger sent to locate the 2nd Legior, should have been able to reach Exeter and return within three days, only to report that the unit was still stuck in its fortress 172 miles (275 km) away"
Anothr false premise, 340 miles in 3 days is 120mpd.
