Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian languages

[eugene]

What the place of Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian languages in Indo-European langiage family?
Which Indo-European languages were their closest relatives?

[Alanus]

That's a good question! Check out J.P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans. Probably Illyrian was similar to Italic or Celtic, a western Indo-European language. Thracians and Dacians were "borderline" tribes, possibly even Indo-Iranian speakers or something in between. But it would be my guess that their ancestors came off the steppes... maybe back in "proto-Scythian" times.

[diegis]

Well, aparently they spoked related languages, especialy thracians and dacians. From what i read, is little known about this languages, but is considered there was languages imediatly derived from a common "ancestor" langauge (about dacian and thracian). Another hypothesis is that dacian was a centum language who later developed satem features. Another thracian origine peoples, phrygians, had the same a language who had similarities with both greek (a centum) and armenian (satem).

Probably thracians (including here both southern thracians and dacians as northern thracians, phrygians too and even cimmerians, considered as well a related thracian people) being one of the oldest constituted indo-european peoples preserved a more archaic language from before the split in satem and centum. But is just hypotheses, because little is known about those languages. From what i read, balto-lituanian language is considered having some ties with dacian one

[eugene]

The hypothesis that Thracian language have some times with Baltic languages is very interesting. Can somebody give further information?

[Alanus]

Razvan! I haven't connected with you for awhile!

And Eugene,

Razvan is correct. These two languages-- Thracian and Dacian-- are very old ones, maybe going back before the split: ie, Indo-European (the western one) and Indo-Iranian. We would assume the Cimmerians spoke Indo-Iranian, since they were closely related to the Scythians. But there is no guarantee, and it's hard to find any real info on their speech. If someone could give us more help, here, it would prove interesting, considering these were two important and related cultures, especially in context with the Romans (who knew very little about these peoples beyond warring upon them). 8)

[Zenobia of Palmyra]

I've read that the Thracian/Dacian language may be related to proto-Slavic. Languages aren't my forte so if that's crazy feel free to ignore me. :oops:

[Alanus]

Oh, no. Maybe not so crazy.

[diegis]

Salve Alan :lol:

And well, proto-slavic is a satem language too. From little is know from dacian language, there isnt too many similarities, but is possible. I saw theories about close ties with old sanskrit as well, and even some who said there was close ties with latin (or more close to greek). Hard to tell, since we dont have big texts write in dacian to known for sure, just couple words and names of mountains and rivers (preserved today in romanian, but not quite close to slavic).
Thats why the most reliable theory in my opinion is that was an archaic language who preserved features from before the split of IE in satem and centum and thracian and dacian (possible ilyrian too) are "sister languages" (so not quite the same language) developed from a imediate common "ancestor" language.

[Alanus]

Back to you, Razvan

That's a good theory. There is another group of languages that showed up early in the Lavant which have no relation to later ones such a Phrygian. Your idea makes sense, because the Dacians and Thracians were some of the first cultures to "arrive" from the steppes (like the Indians did). Maybe the Cimmerians too, but they had many things in common with both the eastern Saka and western Scythians-- such as the "tall hats" that we see on really archaic Greek pottery, and also on Etruscan pottery. (which indicates the Etruscans originally came from more eastern territory)

As you say, languages are difficult to pinpoint when so few words and phrases survive. I had a running argument with someone on another form about the language spoken by the Saka-Massagetae-Alani. He claimed it was Turkic. (Sometimes national identity interferes with one's judgement. :wink: )

have a good one,
AJ

[Arminius75]

Wow, a very goood topic, but very polemic too, mm let me say, Thracian and Dacian could be two related languages as two languages born from the same root, is hard to say where is the possible inflection point exactly, but there is many sources to try to recosntruct something, on the case of illyrians..mmm is harder than we tough, officialy are clasiffied under "Satem" languages...the source for these classification...less than 40 personal names!!!! there is a lot of information about Illyrian names belongs to "Centum" group (the same Gentius), Yapigues, Messapians give us a lot of information but many denies their links with Western Balkans (????) "just a few influences by commercial contacts" (???) Venetic languages are polemic too, the archaeological evidence show a very close group of tribes very close to another Illyrians, some differences on cults...Yapodes tribes were a trouble too...at last the same thing with very strong local traditions under a common cultural marc....the slavic cultures can be related because the slav culture were developed on a stron Thracian, Dacian, Scythian, Illyrian, venetic...etc. basis on their respective territories...genetic show us on Croatia a very solid Haplogroup pattern very different from those Eastern Slavs, Croatians, Bosnians and another groups are the same people since illyrian times but now with a slavic language, albanians could be a bridge between Illyrian languages and those Thracians...genetics here show a very heterogeneous people, 25% show a strong mediterranean heritage, the another are relative to those from Croatia and even Romanian groups...but remember language is not equal to culture and cultura is not equal to "race" ...there is not "races" there is a only one homo sapiens sapiens with many haplogroups :wink: :wink:

[Arminius75]

Wow, a very goood topic, but very polemic too, mm let me say, Thracian and Dacian could be two related languages as two languages born from the same root, is hard to say where is the possible inflection point exactly, but there is many sources to try to recosntruct something, on the case of illyrians..mmm is harder than we tough, officialy are clasiffied under "Satem" languages...the source for these classification...less than 40 personal names!!!! there is a lot of information about Illyrian names belongs to "Centum" group (the same Gentius), Yapigues, Messapians give us a lot of information but many denies their links with Western Balkans (????) "just a few influences by commercial contacts" (???) Venetic languages are polemic too, the archaeological evidence show a very close group of tribes very close to another Illyrians, some differences on cults...Yapodes tribes were a trouble too...at last the same thing with very strong local traditions under a common cultural marc....the slavic cultures can be related because the slav culture were developed on a stron Thracian, Dacian, Scythian, Illyrian, venetic...etc. basis on their respective territories...genetic show us on Croatia a very solid Haplogroup pattern very different from those Eastern Slavs, Croatians, Bosnians and another groups are the same people since illyrian times but now with a slavic language, albanians could be a bridge between Illyrian languages and those Thracians...genetics here show a very heterogeneous people, 25% show a strong mediterranean heritage, the another are relative to those from Croatia and even Romanian groups...but remember language is not equal to culture and cultura is not equal to "race" ...there is not "races" there is a only one homo sapiens sapiens with many haplogroups :wink: :wink:

[diegis]

Salve Alan and Arminius

About dacian and thracian i think they was "sister" languages, and ilyrian was more like a first degree "cousin" to them. I saw somewhere a kind of genetic study (but not sure how precise are those) who show that in Croatia or Bosnia the hplogroup "I" have around 70%, and another big percent was in Romania with around 46-47%. Ofcourse, croatians or bosnians are around 3-5 millions i think, romanians (considering here as well those from Republic of Moldova) are around 25 millions (so much more peoples), but it was said there that haplogroup "I" spread to east and north and present in baltic areas come from romanian areas.

Haplogroup "I" is i think the oldest one in Europe, or one who appeared first here, in south-eastern european refugee place during last Ice Age. When ice start to melt down and retreat to north, peoples here start to move north too, from Balknas, Danube and Carpathians to north, reaching Baltic and Scandinavian areas, where suffer some mutations (there is several types of haplogroup "I").

At some point this "I" peoples (who probably formed the majority of so called "old european civilization"-see Maria Gimbutas) mixed with "R1a" ones comning from the steppes, and formed the first proto-indoeuropeans. And this i suppose was cimmerians, thraco-dacians and then phrygians.
Is not quite a steppes culture, but have deep roots in pre-indoeuropean culture too, and at least for getae-dacian one was related more to mountains and forests. Some parts of that cultures was preserved even today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvSDR6oYXAQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpQ8_k0AP08&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QGa_1bR ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ9Z2N1waVk

This is a coregraphed dance of "calusarii", a secretive male only brotherhood (at least it was in its original form, not the artistic one) coming from ancient times (dacian origin more then probably). Its both a coregraphed war dance with simulated stick or swords battle but in the same time "calusarii" perfomed a spiritual and ritualistic role in village world and popular beliefes. They and their dance was integrated in UNESCO patrimony of Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritages of Humanity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7lTvNW ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFRXzJhp ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRDtP1rK ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE4pcfmK ... re=related

As well the wolf related beliefes are (well, they was until the begining/half of XX century at least, less today with all this globalisation and "modernisation") among the most present in popular beliefes and even in spiritual and religious ones, covered by christianity sometimes. in old burial songs for ex. wolf was represented as the last and more important guide of the soul, when the dead one travel to reach the heaven, is the "master of the other world" who guide the person thru the forest until it reach the heaven "gates" (hell is not mentioned any way, but peoples can lost the track and get lost betwen this world and the other)

[Alanus]

Thanks, Razvan

This will give me plenty to watch! hock: