Sheer horror... A Trooper helmet collection...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

ah okay !!

xD

m.vib.m.

[richsc]

We could take up a collection...

[jkaler48]

We could take up a collection...

WE will send you X $ for every trooper helmet you send us video of being smashed with an AXE!

[Iagoba]

I've seen too much Medieval "reenactment" to be scandalized... :roll:

They don't wear sinthetic furs or leather, or plastic/painted armour. Seems historical, then. :mrgreen:

[M. Demetrius]

Is that a ferre

I think it's a coyote. Admittedly, though, a big enough coyote can pass for a wolf skin. For those who know, though, the color is not the same. I know someone who has bought a gigantic coyote, and plans to use it for a wolf for an officer's helmet. Anybody in Texas bold enough to wear fur on his helmet and stand around in the sun won't get much of a disparaging comment from me. :wink: Bravery has many faces.

[A_Volpe]

never underestimate the desire of a [group] to buy dirt-cheap gear for dirt-cheap prices, in bulk.

I think if nudges a question that nags many of us and our groups' vision/mission/purpose: Do you want 10 Romans in full, accurately made kit that could take months of work, or 50+ Romans in mediocre, cheap kit that could take a week to get?

SIGH.

[Doc]

As an Italian, I just simply do not get it. I would expect other people to use the wrong kit NOT the people of the country who started it all. I just cannot understand this ill researched and poorly acquired gear. I know this group and have seen other groups in Italy that I am sorry to say are really not presentable at least from our perspective.

However, we must look at the populace at large. Who in that crowd would know the difference? I am not defending what went on because you guys are hung up on the helmets and socks. I was hung up on everything.

Ten accurately equipped Romans is not better than 50 less accurately equipped Romans. Maybe for us it makes a difference but for the crowd the more the merrier. Its about impressing the mob as it was back then. Look at it this way, if the people looking at this have little to no idea about what accurate kit is supposed to look like, then telling them that we have only ten reenactors but their kit is accurate is insignificant whereas 50 is impressive. For those who are not the wiser, they are there to look at a show. As a matter of fact, I dare say, that the majority of people who go to these things do so because its fun and they can see people dressed in gear made famous only by Hollywood. If it was not for movies like Gladiator, Ben Hur, Rome etc, the bulk of the people at ancient Roman reernactments would be ourslelves.

[Matthew Amt]

However, we must look at the populace at large. Who in that crowd would know the difference?

No, no, NO! That is NOT an excuse to do things WRONG!! THAT IS WHY WE DO THINGS RIGHT!! Should we not be concerned if half or three-fourths of the information in a science or math textbook is wrong? When reenactors are out on public display, they are perceived as teachers, and their clothing and equipment is seen as historical by the audience. As you said, these are the same folks who believe the movies, so live performers will, if anything, be seen as more creditable. Blatant inaccuracies are basically a lie. When we appear in front of an audience, we have a duty to be as accurate as we can be. Obviously we can't be perfect, and I will agree that there are practical limits to what is "acceptable" and what is not. And we can't expect to teach or show EVERYthing, but what we have should be as good as we can realistically get it.

Otherwise, simple: Stay out of public view! Go have some jolly closed events, filled with Trooper helmets, bracers, and Superman capes, and have fun. I guarantee you'll have more participants than any decent educational public event.


If that audience in Italy had seen some better reenactors in the past, or even (GASP!) seen something vaguely realistic on TV or in a movie, farby groups like that one wouldn't be invited to show up. Because people would know better with a little education! Moreover, that group had to go to some extra effort and expense for some of their inaccuracies! Skipping things like bracers, and having less uniformity, would have saved them money. And all the information they needed has been free on the Internet for years.

Ten accurately equipped Romans is not better than 50 less accurately equipped Romans.

I disagree!! Quality is always preferable to quantity, for the purposes of public events.

Maybe for us it makes a difference but for the crowd the more the merrier. Its about impressing the mob as it was back then. Look at it this way, if the people looking at this have little to no idea about what accurate kit is supposed to look like, then telling them that we have only ten reenactors but their kit is accurate is insignificant whereas 50 is impressive. For those who are not the wiser, they are there to look at a show. As a matter of fact, I dare say, that the majority of people who go to these things do so because its fun and they can see people dressed in gear made famous only by Hollywood. If it was not for movies like Gladiator, Ben Hur, Rome etc, the bulk of the people at ancient Roman reernactments would be ourslelves.

So you're saying we should go with Hollywood's dogma: "The public is ignorant, so we have to keep lying to them!" That's crap, and you know it. It's also a completely inexcusable attitude in anyone who claims to be interested in history, much less in one who claims to portray it. If the majority of the unwashed masses don't care about the details, fine, they don't have to study them! But for those few who want to see a little more, we have no excuse for showing them things that we KNOW are not historically accurate. I am not about to shovel garbage down the throats of people who "don't know any better", simply because they don't know any better. Do it right, or don't do it.

Vale,

Matthew

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Doc, the big problem in Italy apart from re-enactors doing it wronger than wrong, lies just in the idea that 10 good equipped legionaries are not as important as 50 badly equipped ones.

Of course you were disgusted by what you saw, we all were and still are.

The Maximus should be rebuilt and horse races should be held again. Rome as it once was too for that matter...*sorry i lose topic quite easily...

If the populace at large, which in my book consists of Visigoths and just a few with proper genetic Roman DNA :twisted: is so important, why are there still so much problems with a high standard in re-enactment in Italy ?

In the case of this group, i can only imagine one thing... lack of serious research, lack of funding *the only reason to buy that horrendous helmet* and unawareness of other groups doing it right.

Compare the Marle event to the Maximus event... A difference in class !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erzN7ncmVWc

M.VIB.M.

[Doc]

Yes Henk,

That is what I mean. The Marle event was awesome from the pictures I saw. But even there, not every legionary was really up to par either. However, overall the bulk was beautiful to see.

I also agree with you Henk that I too do not understand the use of crappy gear. There is enough DSC and Deepeeka gear that is decent enough for a decent appearence.

That is what really pisses me off (excuse my words but I have not other to explain it at the moment) about the overall reenactment scene in Italy. I know that Luca Bonacini's group does a good job at keeping things as close as possible. However, the rest just go with the "we look cool idea" not we look correct.

What do you expect from people in Italy who sadly have remote feelings about their past. I am not trying to generalize however when I visit that is the feeling I get. When I tell people that I am a private collector of both original and reconstructed pieces, they just look at me and say: Wow nice but why do you do it or what is the incentive? Immediately this sort of question churns my stomach and I degress from answering.

That is actually the problem in Italy, the Romans were a fanciful past. Period.

[Graham Sumner]

Just out of interest, if they had been dressed and drilled exactly like the ESG would they have been greeted even on RAT by universal shouts of approval?

Personally I suspect not.

They may have copied Hollywood i.e 'Gladiator' but in my opinion they do show the correct use of the popular anti-cavalry drill formation, which as in the film is used as a defence against archery which is what our only source tells us it was used for, not a cavalry charge!

Can you blame them for using trooper helmets when even museums at major Roman sites in the UK sell them! However in the UK at least they are not cheap either, they often sell for prices more expensive than most of those sold for instance by Armamentaria. Perhaps Adrian can explain why that is and why museums stock them in preference to more accurate models, are they cheaper for retailers to buy???

Are many of the source books we Anglo Saxons take for granted available in Italy - Italian? You would think that in the days of the internet all the information you would require would be readily available. Nevertheless if you ever Google Image 'Roman soldier' and sees what comes up, it is no wonder Film makers or new groups can get confused.


Graham.

[Doc]

This is to Matt who completely misunderstood the tone of my post. That is what I really like about writing as opposed to speaking on the phone.

I am not going to belabor the issue further but in the world we live in its not quality its quantity. Do you really think Matt, that ten Romans in proper gear is more impressive than just 50 Romans no matter what they are wearing. Yes, to you and me, the proper Romans are desirable but to people at an event its the other way around. Small groups that have an officer and three legionaries are ridiculous no matter how excellent their kit is when in public. I know, without mentioning any names, of people within our hobby that ridicule small groups. So don't tell me that the norm look for quality, they don't. People want a good show.

And No I am not saying that people should just stay ignorant and believe Hollywood. All I am saying is that we represent a small closed minority and that we will not really change the majority of what people will see since WE ARE NOT IN THE MOVIES or on the HISTORY CHANNEL. Even on the HC, things are really screwed up but who are people going to believe.

I also think that generally many people at an event come for purposes of curiosity not because they are interested in history. Again, they come to look at a show. Do you really think that telling them "Hey the real neckguard is round while the crappy one is like a lobster tail" is going to change that persons general perception. I think Matt, that you have TOO much faith in people.

I do agree that it is our duty as people who like history to make sure that what WE do is the best we can. But believe me it goes under appreciated and barely noticed IMHO.

You really want to talk about inaccuracies, Matt? How about reenactors here in the US that look like they belong on a pro American football team. Should they go home too? I am sure that there were many 6'0 tall if not taller soldiers all weighing in at 250lbs and higher. Some of the reenactors I have seen from the US have a belt that is barely visible because their gut hangs over the whole thing.

So someone that is huge as described but has the correct equipment is ok?

Thus going all out to sort groups that suck is really not all that necessary simply because of the above statement.

[Doc]

Excellent point Mr. Sumner,if you google musculata alone, you cannot believe the horrible replicas and reconstructions that come up. Most musculata reconstructions are I am not even going to say what and they can be seen in some groups considered good by other RAT members.

I have seen group websites where the equipment is deemed excellent from RAT members when I know it really is not.

Also, I forgot to mention in my other post that the Roman army was not really homogenous. Does anyone actually think that ALL the helmets were the same or that the swords were all the same type. These things we are only making an assumption because as far as I know, there are no sources that say what everyone exactly looked like at X, Y, Z time.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Graham, if our only source is Vegetius, forget about the entire anti-cavalry formation.



M.VIB.M.

[Graham Sumner]

Graham, if our only source is Vegetius, forget about the entire anti-cavalry formation.

Ross Cowan and I discussed this a few years ago and had a look to see if we could find the source, as the re-enactors who use it could not tell us. Ross found it in Plutach's Lives.

The incident happened during Marc Antony's retreat from Parthia. When attacked by horse archers the Romans adopted the formation. However when the cavalry attacked, the Roman infantry stood up and defeated the charge.

I have never figured out why people think you can kill a horse while hiding behind a shield unable to see anything but as Mike Bishop would say the re-enactors 'anti cavalry drill' has become a factoid!

So as I said in my view, full marks to these Italians.

However it would be nice to hear if they have bought up all the remaining stocks of trooper helmets, so that at last they can be rounded up and destroyed. I am sure that would get 100% approval from RAT.

Graham.