Sheer horror... A Trooper helmet collection...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The Gemina was the first to do the anti cavalry drill, just for a laugh then and after that the ESG joined in on the fun...also just for a laugh
Did we start a trend ? probably !

All the more fun to see people nowadays taking it seriousely... still missing the throwing back of cabbages through the trap door in the middle of the testudo technique we tried years back....

LOL

M.VIB.M.

[Graham Sumner]

The Gemina was the first to do the anti cavalry drill, just for a laugh then and after that the ESG joined in on the fun...also just for a laugh
Did we start a trend ? probably !

I thought others did it well before either the Gemina or ESG but I have myself thrown a cabbage at Alan Larsen on horseback which was on the English Heritage film of the event at Kirby Hall 1997 and had the dubious pleasure of having a horse jump over me when I was kneeling down behind a shield. Technically walk over the shield would be more correct.

Usually if you do ask groups who use the formation what they have based it on, the common answer is that they have seen it done somewhere else.

Graham.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

True, not every group researches the primary sources that well ;P

We did it in France in the early 90's, and at the first KH event.

I remember the cabbage throwing that was a good laugh !!

M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Doc wrote:

That is actually the problem in Italy, the Romans were a fanciful past. Period.

Indeed, and while we, with our largely northern European/Anglo-Saxon outlook on the subject of 're-enactment', as eloquently espoused by Matt Amt rail against such 'abominations', we might want to consider a couple of things.....

1. The ESG, when they started, looked pretty 'farby' and it is largely they who originated 'Roman re-enactment', at least in the anglo-saxon world.

2 Southern Europeans, such as the Spanish and Italians, have a long tradition of clubs and groups dressing up in 'historical' costumes for 'festas' and the like, parading in them and so on. This is a strong cultural tradition, and the emphasis is to produce the best show, and look 'cool'. The costumes are never entirely authentic, but nobody cares because that isn't the point - it's to look better than, and compete with, the other groups. Hardly surprising then, with this cultural background, the emphasis for those ' Roman re-enactors' should be on the 'show' aspects rather than any concerns about accuracy.

(and by the way, dressing up for a village pageant type event was exactly how the ESG started ! D )

I hasten to add that of course in Italy and particularly in Spain, there are dedicated and superb re-enactors and groups whose accuracy standards are second to none. 8)

[Doc]

Paul,

Your second point is EXACTLY what I was trying to say albeit my post was more wordy.

[Graham Sumner]

(and by the way, dressing up for a village pageant type event was exactly how the ESG started ! )

I know I have seen "the historic documents"! Upon enlistment I was even issued with a fibre-glass helmet! Fortunately a metal version arrived soon afterwards so I never wore the fibre-glass one into action so to speak. That was 12 years after the founding of the Guard just to indicate the length of time it took when nothing was available off the shelf! The Guard was proud of its origins and the improvements it made.

If anyone would have seen the pictures of the Italian event way back then they would have been amazed and that probably would have been seen as the standard to aspire too.

Graham.

[Matthew Amt]

This is to Matt who completely misunderstood the tone of my post.

My apologies if I did, but as folks around here know, the Authenticity Button really lights me up.

I am not going to belabor the issue further but in the world we live in its not quality its quantity. Do you really think Matt, that ten Romans in proper gear is more impressive than just 50 Romans no matter what they are wearing.

YES. I teach to people who want to learn. Those who simply want "awsome" are free to sit in front of the boob tube watching and eating junk. Along the way, I also manage to impress a few folks who didn't know what to expect. That's what I do.

Yes, to you and me, the proper Romans are desirable but to people at an event its the other way around. Small groups that have an officer and three legionaries are ridiculous no matter how excellent their kit is when in public.

These days my group is lucky to turn out 3 legionaries, sometimes with an optio or signifer. And no spectator has ever call us ridiculous. They are generally very impressed and gratified to see us.

So don't tell me that the norm look for quality, they don't. People want a good show.

Well, if the "norm" doesn't want quality, tough. They'll just have to put up with a good show anyway.

And No I am not saying that people should just stay ignorant and believe Hollywood. All I am saying is that we represent a small closed minority and that we will not really change the majority of what people will see since WE ARE NOT IN THE MOVIES or on the HISTORY CHANNEL. Even on the HC, things are really screwed up but who are people going to believe.

Actually, the only person I can remember who was convinced that Hollywood was more accurate than reenactors was our own Woadwarrior! We just couldn't convince him that it was all makeup and movie magic.

I also think that generally many people at an event come for purposes of curiosity not because they are interested in history. Again, they come to look at a show. Do you really think that telling them "Hey the real neckguard is round while the crappy one is like a lobster tail" is going to change that persons general perception. I think Matt, that you have TOO much faith in people.

And I think you haven't been to enough reenactments! Events like Marching Through Time and Roman Days attract ONLY people who are interested in history! They come to see US and to learn from us, and yes, sometimes they are interested in stupid little details. Heck, sometimes they have quite a bit of detailed knowledge and can hold some startlingly technical discussions with us.

I do agree that it is our duty as people who like history to make sure that what WE do is the best we can. But believe me it goes under appreciated and barely noticed IMHO.

I'm not trying to compete with Hollywood. I'm just trying to do what I like to do, the way I want to do it. And I DO think that it is worthwhile, and that it makes a difference. Ask the hundreds of school kids I've done demos for, for starters.

You really want to talk about inaccuracies, Matt? How about reenactors here in the US that look like they belong on a pro American football team. Should they go home too? I am sure that there were many 6'0 tall if not taller soldiers all weighing in at 250lbs and higher....

Don't even start that with me, you know me better than that! It's the silly argument of "Well, if you can't be PERFECT then why bother, and why complain about other little things that no one notices?" Completely specious, nothing more than a smokescreen. My Legio XX website states my position quite clearly.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bylaws.html
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hndbk.html

Also, I forgot to mention in my other post that the Roman army was not really homogenous. Does anyone actually think that ALL the helmets were the same or that the swords were all the same type. These things we are only making an assumption because as far as I know, there are no sources that say what everyone exactly looked like at X, Y, Z time.

Sorry? I might have missed something, but no one here on RAT has ever tried to claim strict uniformity, that I know of. And we DO have at least a good working idea of what they looked like in most eras from artwork and archeology. My point was that if that Italian show group allowed some diversity, they could save some money.

For the rest of the discussion, sure I know what reenactors of most any era looked like when their part of the hobby got started. So what? Overall we've come a long way since then, and that just proves that we are making progress. People just getting started now have a HUGE advantage, and resources that we never dreamed of 20 years ago. Yeah, it takes some caution and a little more research than just a Google search. You may think we can't do anything about Italy's cultural obsession with show groups, but WE ALREADY HAVE. Look at Luca's group and the other good ones--they learned from US!

So don't expect me to accept any thought of rolling over to "what the public wants", because I don't think that's true, and I know that we are making a difference.

In other words, my side is winning, slowly but surely, outnumbered as we may be. And we are not giving up.

Valete,

Matthew

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

No one can compare LARP with living history, as well as compare SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) to living history and re-enactment.

They are as different as fire and water.

leave that out of the equasion please. the discussion is why groups who have abundant information availavble, as well as proper and good
reconstructions still see it fit to walk around with MUCK !

M.VIB.M.

[Doc]

Hi Matt,

Good points. I like having these free discussion.

However, I would like to mention that on one of my previous posts, I did mention Luca's group and that they are very good.

Yes, I saw your website about requirements.

[A_Volpe]

Ooof


I didn't think my off-ended comment might have stirred up some emotion :p

My comment that cheap stuff sells is a reflection on a sad truth. Just as was pointed out, many museums and what would be seen as reputable sellers/vendors offer things like Trooper helmets because they are cheap and easy, and look "close enough". A few merchants have realized their mistake, or had decided to get better, more accurate gear (as from feedback from us reenactors and enthusiasts), but then they are stuck with a pile of junk helmets to get rid of to make room for the good stuff, so it starts that cycle over again.

What's more, there are a lot of vendors, or their information/label of a particular item, that is misleading and sometimes just plain wrong. Just because a vendor says it's "authentic" doesn't make it so. The hard part is convincing (new members) that it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, but to be wary about dirt-cheap prices and sales pitches, too!

As Matt pointed out, there are basically two types of audience: Those who care, are interested, want to learn; and those who don't care, want to be "entertained" and are fine with "close enough" in authenticity (because they don't know any better and don't care)

Of course the general public is not going to know the difference between good kit and bad kit, as well as good "reenacting" vs ego-driven drama-fests. Here in the U.S., we have this, dare I say, epidemic of people who don't know enough history to get them out of a cardboard box. It's kind of scary, but then, that's where people like myself and Matt Amt and others thrive - we happily fill in those gaps and try to teach a little when we put on events. I love doing it, despite the occasional jerk or moron.

I've also been to other period reenacting events and have seen some horrific displays and misinformation being thrown out, a direct contradiction to the historical sources that are so readily available. So it's not just Romans and Trooper helmets, it's everywhere and every period.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's worth the effort to be as researched and accurately reconstructed as possible, and to not use crap as a gap-fill if it can possibly be avoided.

It is unfortunate to see groups like the one in the video with really bad stuff, so I hope that eventually they'll realize their mistakes and try to re-fit with better gear, perhaps have a good Roman [reenactor] approach them politely and with generosity to help steer them towards better research and avoid crap gear.

[Doc]

Andy,

I agree with your points as well. Believe me, I am all for authenticity.

I have been trying to go to one of Matt's events for two years since I live in NY. But being untenured gets me the crappiest schedules and I cannot move easily (I get tenure next year). I know that Matt has mentioned that he would really like to take a look at my kit since he knows I have gone crazy getting it as close as possible and down as close as possible to the metal composition used by the Romans.

I too give talks and make sure that depending on my audience I research what I am going to say before I open my mouth.

My talks are not about the army per se. They are more based on science and technology (metal composition, metal working etc). My talks are generally for chemistry audiences. However, even tunics are lots of fun to discuss beginning with the dyeing process and ending with the urine cleaning agent.

[M. Demetrius]

ending with the urine cleaning agent.

Gasp! hock: They cleaned their urine?? With what? :roll: :lol:

[Doc]

David,

You know what I mean. Obviously, the urine was the cleaning agent.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Roman cities were full of jars put out on the street in which Urine was collected for clothing manifacturers, these jars also sometimes broke, spilling their contents in the street... We always think the Romans were so hygienic, well, they were not.

Hadrian passed a law in which it was stated that sick people should bathe before the healthy ones in the bath houses.

About the dealers who are stuck with a pile of trooper helmets... Iron, so can be melted down. No problem there i think.

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

Yep. I can never resist a play on words, though...misplaced modifiers are the more subtle puns.

Man: I knew a man with a wooden leg named Smith.
Other man: Really? What was his other leg's name?
(from Mary Poppins)

Urine was valuable enough that it was taxed, eventually.