how effective were hoplites in individual combat?

[KrimzonKnight]

Hello, im fairly new to this forum and this is my first post. Im fascinated with hoplites, specifically the spartans, but something iv never understood was how hoplites engaged in single combat. I know that hoplites were intended for phalanx warfare, the aspis design makes this obvious. But, surly individual combat between hoplites would have taken place on the battlefield? Are there not many vase paintings depicting this? Though I understand that many of these depictions would have been romanticized duels between heroes and such. if so is their any clue to how hoplites would have fought? Are there any mentions of hoplite individual combat in the writings of ancient historians? I mean the aspis grip makes the shield rather awkward for that purpose, its hard to block certain attacks without exposing yourself. I remember reading or hearing ( its been a while since i came about this) that the secrets of how the spartans used their shield in individual combat was hidden in their dances, as there are example that depict them dancing with shields? could there there be any truth to this? how effective could hoplites be in individual combat?

Eric Nino

[Matthew Amt]

Khaire! And welcome to RAT!

Individual combat for a hoplite would be fundamentally the same as for most other folks--block with the shield, thrust with the spear. The shield is a little heavier than some, but the grip arrangement gives you good control. Sure, the motions would be different from what you can do with a center grip shield, but we know it could be held face-on to the opponent, or edge-on. Even on my tall leggy frame, there is only a small gap between my shield and my greaves, and this can be covered very quickly by either swinging the shield down a little, or just crouching. Any use of most any shield potentially exposes something, so I don't see any significant problem, here.

Europe was full of barbarians who used much smaller shields, and used them for individual combat often without any armor or helmet, so I'd say the average hoplite is ahead of the game!

Vale,

Matthew

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Correct,and may i add that we do know that the "choplomachoi", teachers of fightng with weapons, were known in greece,and ritch men would hire them for their personal trainning. And we also know that these were supposed to provide skills mostly useful when one army breaks and what follows is mostly a mess where men are more likely to need skill in individual fighting.
Khsire
Giannis

[KrimzonKnight]

Thank you! Are you the same matthew amt that has the greek hoplie page? Iv been to that site many time, it was very informative.

Eric Nino

[KrimzonKnight]

thank you as well Giannis! Do you know where i could read more about hoplite techniques in individual combat?
Eric Nino

[Matthew Amt]

Thank you! Are you the same matthew amt that has the greek hoplie page? Iv been to that site many time, it was very informative.

Eric Nino

Yup, that's me. Glad you like it! I've just been doing a little updating, trying to fix all the %$#@(*#@ links to RAT... It needs a more thorough re-writing, but not tonight!

Khaire,

Matthew

[PMBardunias]

I would like to see someone with both combat fencing experience and spear handling take a look at the old treatises on rapier and target as shown in these images. Surely there must be some commonality.

[attachment=334]Fencingshield.JPG[/attachment]


One big drawback of the aspis is that it cannot be held at arm's length. This means that the area of coverage is greatly reduced compared to a single grip shield. This may be mitigated if most strikes were delivered overhand, because the commonly seem pose, with the bottom edge of the aspis brought up would shadow the lower body from strikes coming in from above.

[PMBardunias]

For an ancient ficticious account:

Euripides, Phoenissae
When the Tuscan trumpet, like a torch, blew the signal for the bloody battle, they darted wildly against one another; [1380] like boars whetting their savage tusks, they joined battle, their beards wet with foam. They kept shooting out their spears, but crouched beneath their shields to let the steel glance off in vain; but if either saw the other's eye above the rim, [1385] he would aim his lance there, eager to outwit him with the point. But both kept such careful outlook through the spy-holes in their shields, that their weapons found nothing to do; while from the onlookers far more than the combatants trickled the sweat caused by terror for their friends.
1390] Eteocles, in kicking aside a stone that rolled beneath his tread, exposed a limb outside his shield, and Polyneices, seeing a chance of dealing him a blow, aimed at it, and the Argive shaft passed through his leg; [1395] the Danaid army, one and all, cried out for joy. And the wounded man, seeing Polyneices' shoulder bare in this effort, plunged his spear with all his might into his breast, restoring gladness to the citizens of Thebes, though he broke off the spear-head. [1400] And so, at a loss for a weapon, he retreated step by step, till catching up a splintered rock he let it fly and broke the other's spear in the middle; and now the combat was equal, for each had lost his lance.
Then clutching their sword-hilts [1405] they closed, and round and round, with shields clashing, they fought a wild battle. And Eteocles introduced the crafty Thessalian trick, having some knowledge of it from his association with that country. Disengaging himself from the immediate contest, [1410] he drew back his left foot but kept his eye closely on the pit of the other's stomach from a distance; then advancing his right foot he plunged the weapon through his navel and fixed it in his spine. Down fell Polyneices, dripping with blood, [1415] ribs and belly contracting in his agony. But the other, thinking his victory now complete, threw down his sword and began to despoil him, wholly intent on that, without a thought for himself. And this indeed tripped him up; for Polyneices, who had fallen first, was still faintly breathing, [1420] and having in his grievous fall kept his sword, he made a last effort and drove it through the heart of Eteocles. They both lie there, fallen side by side, biting the dust with their teeth, and they have not decided the mastery.

[MeinPanzer]

thank you as well Giannis! Do you know where i could read more about hoplite techniques in individual combat?
Eric Nino

J.K. Anderson's "Military theory and practice in the age of Xenophon" features an entire chapter on combat training for hoplites.