Alexander statue

[Macedon]

We care.. You may have no love for your country's national symbols and heritage, and this is your right. You should though accept, that most people still care about such things and thus, they should be faced as reality. In all, you do not have to agree with a problem in order for it to be a problem. It was yet another provocative action taken by this state's politicians, not because we are right in our claims (which of course I think we are), but because they went out and did it (and the statue of Philip II, and the renaming of their national airport etc etc) despite their knowing how we, their neighbors, would feel. So, you might feel that all this situation is nothing important, but to us, all this effort they make to make us angry has to be somehow rewarded... And no, they do all this to piss us off and in the process create a nationalistic feeling, so important to keep alive a state with such powerful and competitive minorities.

[Jona Lendering]

We care.. You may have no love for your country's national symbols and heritage, and this is your right. You should though accept, that most people still care about such things and thus

Although I think that "most people" is a strong claim (I just haven't counted it), I think you are essentially right. To stick to the most recent events, it was not clever of the republic around Skopje to print stamps or banknotes with the White Tower of Thessaloniki. Whatever your historical claim, there is an internationally guaranteed border halfway Skopje and Thessaloniki, and a new state must not challenge that. The FYRoM government has created a lot of unnecessary problems, and has served its citizens poorly.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

There is only one word which comes up in my mind for both sides in this petty conflict about nothing:

HUBRIS !!!


Qui ex errore imperitae multitudinis pendet, hic in magnis viris non est habendus.
De Officiis (I, 19)

M.VIB.M.

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Before this discussion goes to politics (something I didn't/don't want), I think it's great that people pay so much attention to history and place it in sight of everyone. On the other hand, it's quite not a tactical move diplomatically seen.


Btw, MVM: If you think it's petty, then why all the yelling?

[Magnus]

People should not carry too much past with them. When nations are too interested in ancient or medieval history, international relations invariably go from bad to worse.

One of the many facets of humanity that is sad and pathetic. And why there will continually be wars. I mean hey, if we Canadians riot because we lose in the Stanley Cup finals...others will do more for just as silly a reason.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Edited, lack of humor.

[Robert Vermaat]

So much more.......:grin:

Actually, the story behind that one is less funny than it looks. The girl had just fallen hard (I think when the croud was charged at), and her boyfriend is comforting her. Not so much an oblivious lover's kiss as a painful event!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

edited.

Not funny enough when you see the real reason the lady was on the ground in Canada...

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/994/stand-d...uver.dhtml

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Greeks should stop acting so childish about the Macedonians using Alexander the Great for their own benefit. Alexander the Great was NOT EVEN Greek ! he was MACEDONIAN ! who cares if the original country lay somewhere in the North regions of what now is the Greek country....

M.VIB.M.

When you have had all of your culture robbed left right and center,
I think you would feel a bit peeved too!

He was as Greek as any Greek, becuase he wanted to be, and also, the fact that he
was born within the boundaries of modern Greece, makes him forefather of Greece.
As much a part of Greece's Ancient history as Pericles, Thucidides, Xenophon, or any other figure from the past!

[Jona Lendering]

the fact that he was born within the boundaries of modern Greece, makes him forefather of Greece.

I have some difficulty with this argument. In my opinion - which is not necessarily the only correct one - ethnicities are extremely fluid.

Nor am I completely sure that the Macedonians wanted to be Greeks, although "Greek" is certainly the ethnic label that comes closest to "Macedonian". However, it is remarkable that the Successors had a deliberate policy to spread Greek civilization, but consistently called themselves Macedonian, and used Macedonian words: e.g., peliganes instead of gerousia. Even to Greek-writing Appian, living in the Roman Empire, being Macedonian and not being Greek was something to be proud about. I do not know what this means.

As much a part of Greece's Ancient history as Pericles, Thucidides, Xenophon, or any other figure from the past!

Right.

[Macedon]

? Well, I agree. I have to stress that another so-called Greek faction, was more times and more unambiguously, actually directly, called barbarian. It also had a lot of strange words in its vernacular, so that its language was even called by a peculiarly distinct name and the majority of its inhabitants did not belong to that race, a great many, even leading personalities, admittedly being barbarians or semi-barbarians. It was also renowned for its aloofness, the peculiarity of its political and social system and even conquered much of Greece at a time, considered very oppressive and extremely intolerant to revolts. It also waged many and bloody wars against Greeks. The Athenians...

Fun aside, I am all too aware of the dispute and all arguments for and against. I just wonder why no one checks whether any arguments put forward regarding the Greekness of the Macedonians also apply to Athenians, Spartans, Syracusans and other Greeks, making them sound unique for the Macedonians...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Fully agree with your last statement, any National feeling based on ancient history is in fact nonsense. To say you are Greek and be proud of your heritage is one thing, to denounce others for being non-Greek and demanding them not to use international world history to try and identify oneself with a more glorious regional or international past is moronic. When i say i feel Roman it means i appreciate all that Rome meant. When i say i am of Samurai mind, it means i try to adhere to Bushido and the Hagakure and other forms of Japanese martial philosophy of the period 1400-1868. It does not mean i am. Just like you cannot say you are Greek, German, Dutch, English American or whatever. That might be the political status quo of the nation you were born in, but any form of national proudness or nationalistic feelings in my eyes is utter nonsense since you are human first of all. We all have red blood, 10 fingers 10 toes, arms, legs etc. The only difference is skin tone and eye shape. For the rest we are all the same. Those who let themselves be guided and steered by national and nationalistic feelings in my eyes are blind. Blind and desperate for they believe the propaganda made by their own so called states and do not have their own unique identity. Their so called feeling of belonging is what disturbs and disgusts me the most in the present day world. Of course it has always been that way, it is part of the human condition, this disease which spread since the first apes stood up and humanity evolved into what it is today. A pest which destroys the earth.

Why do i not see those proud Greeks demonstrating all over athens wearing the panoplia ? That would make a statement. A line of riot police confronted by a Phalanx of well dressed Greek soldiers, of true Greeks in stead of anarcho syndicalists or whatever you like to call yourself or like to belong to.

But no, they are all scared of real action and remain simple re-enactors, just liking to camp and portray the past in a way which is sometimes spot on but more often just a dream. They all live the past they say, well they do not. They show how it might have looked, that is all. That is not at all bad in itself, but dont try and adhere a national feeling to it and try to prevent others from making their own identity by falling back on some ancient history. Just laugh at it and stand above it, or wage war classical style, with sword, spear and shield. No guns, cannon or bombs, that is the coward way of fighting. Okay, you will lose, and you will lose dreadfully, but at least you made a statement true to the heart, albeit ridiculous.

M.VIB.M.

[Tiberio]

Ah this topic, hilarious! Everyone telling everyone what they should think or not, and how their attitude to history should be, or not. But manga freaks and people who enjoy blending all their interests into any topic is just grand. I am just waiting for the first Inuits who are very fond of african bush men, that is about all that is missing here.
So you as a Dutch person know exactly how people feel in the Greek/Macedonian area? I have my doubts. You might very well know how things are in your area of the world, but then going around saying how things are, or supposed to be in areas further away, let alone maybe never even visited is a bit......
I am not taking sides here, as I have never been in that region, and I certainly am not going to do so as if I had regional knowledge. But what does someones interests of certain Asian aspects have the least to do with this topic? Other than that you seemingly enjoy commenting anything and everything? That smacks just as much as those squabbeling about who is Greek or not, or who belongs to where ever.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

So you as a Dutch person know exactly how people feel in the Greek/Macedonian area? I have my doubts. You might very well know how things are in your area of the world, but then going around saying how things are, or supposed to be in areas further away, let alone maybe never even visited is a bit......
I am not taking sides here, as I have never been in that region, and I certainly am not going to do so as if I had regional knowledge. But what does someones interests of certain Asian aspects have the least to do with this topic? Other than that you seemingly enjoy commenting anything and everything? That smacks just as much as those squabbeling about who is Greek or not, or who belongs to where ever.

Do I look like i care at all ? But I must agree with you Tiberio, I am missing the Inuit perspective in this thread !!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

I just have to laugh at all people who are blinded by nationalistic feelings and ideas,
for I am a god amongst insects. Hell i dont even take myself serious... ever !!!
(nor do i expect anyone to take me serious either, at least not in the off topic section)

Rotflmao.

THIS POSTING WAS ENDORSED BY THE:




M.VIB.M.