Alexander statue

[Jona Lendering]

I just wonder why no one checks whether any arguments put forward regarding the Greekness of the Macedonians also apply to Athenians

One of the problems is that the ancient sources contain several references to the Macedonian language as something that needed to be translated (e.g., Eumenes addressing a Macedonian phalanx), or that was incomprehensible to other Greeks (e.g., the story about Alexander killing Kleitos). To the best of my knowledge, someone speaking Attic understood someone speaking Dorian.

Personally, I conceptualize things as if there was an 'average Greek language'; Attic, Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian, and Northwest-Greek were closer to this average than Macedonian. An orator who wanted to present Macedonians as foreigners, exaggerated this distance and called the Macedonians "barbarians"; his opponent could gloss over this distance and could call them "Greeks".

... manga freaks ...

I think it is unfair to say this about Henk.

[Jona Lendering]

Is it possible that everybody counts to ten before posting?

[Tiberio]

So you as a Dutch person know exactly how people feel in the Greek/Macedonian area? I have my doubts. You might very well know how things are in your area of the world, but then going around saying how things are, or supposed to be in areas further away, let alone maybe never even visited is a bit......
I am not taking sides here, as I have never been in that region, and I certainly am not going to do so as if I had regional knowledge. But what does someones interests of certain Asian aspects have the least to do with this topic? Other than that you seemingly enjoy commenting anything and everything? That smacks just as much as those squabbeling about who is Greek or not, or who belongs to where ever.

Do I look like i care at all ? But I must agree with you Tiberio, I am missing the Inuit perspective in this thread !!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

I just have to laugh at all people who are blinded by nationalistic feelings and ideas,
for I am a god amongst insects. Hell i dont even take myself serious... ever !!!
(nor do i expect anyone to take me serious either, at least not in the off topic section)

Rotflmao.

THIS POSTING WAS ENDORSED BY THE:




M.VIB.M.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Oh my gosh you really compare yourself with Homer Simpson ?

That indeed is an Epic Fail Tiberio.....

PS: Next time you quote someones post, edit the quoted area to just display those sentences which matter or which part you want to react to, instead of quoting a full post including images which already have been posted. saves bandwidth.

M.VIB.M.

PS: @ Jona, I thought for at least 10 seconds before posting this.

[Virilis]

Guys, life is surprisingly short and we don't have time for this, so I think it is time to ponder the purpose of this forum. I think you all know what I mean :evil: ...

[Macedon]

I just wonder why no one checks whether any arguments put forward regarding the Greekness of the Macedonians also apply to Athenians

One of the problems is that the ancient sources contain several references to the Macedonian language as something that needed to be translated (e.g., Eumenes addressing a Macedonian phalanx), or that was incomprehensible to other Greeks (e.g., the story about Alexander killing Kleitos). To the best of my knowledge, someone speaking Attic understood someone speaking Dorian.

Personally, I conceptualize things as if there was an 'average Greek language'; Attic, Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian, and Northwest-Greek were closer to this average than Macedonian. An orator who wanted to present Macedonians as foreigners, exaggerated this distance and called the Macedonians "barbarians"; his opponent could gloss over this distance and could call them "Greeks".

... manga freaks ...

I think it is unfair to say this about Henk.

Actually this is not true. There is only one instance in the whole ancient literature where the Macedonian language was directly IMPLIED to be not intelligible to Atticizing Greeks and that was in Curtius, during Philotas' "patrio sermo" text (the only allusion of an interpreter being needed by Philotas to understand "his own language"). And actually Curtius many times shows directly that Macedonian was Greek in other instances. There is no other text which says anything of the sort about the Macedonian language. The incident with Eumenes said nothing about the language, it just said that a soldier was sent who was speaking Macedonian which says nothing of the sort. On the other hand, Herodot directly says that the Athenians were introduced into the Greek language by the Macedonians. Search as you like, there will be absolutely no text you will find which will claim such a thing about the Macedonian language in Greek or in Roman literature.

Actually, they did... First I have to point out that Demosthenes called Philip a barbarian and never the Macedonians (yet I agree that one could claim that Macedonians should also be included in the distance). Aeschines and Isocrates (contemporaries to Demosthenes), both call Philip a Greek (even "Greeker than most Greeks") and of course not just them...

But again, it would be very useful to talk about whatever references we have about the Macedonian language (and comparing these with other Greek and non-Greek languages). Yet, I think that this is not the thread for it. There are many misconceptions regarding the number of the "debated" instances in the texts. Most only hear about them being "numerous" or something in the works of those who promote the shed-doubts theory but very few know how many or what is the case with other Greek and non-Greek languages and peoples.

[Macedon]

Fully agree with your last statement, any National feeling based on ancient history is in fact nonsense.

M.VIB.M.

If it is with me you are agreeing, I think I was just unsuccessfully trying to be ironic. I tried to just point out that the Macedonians are never studied under the same criteria as every other Greek tribe. I wish they would, then there would be much less misunderstandings...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I think you definetely have a point there, because the entire region under Greek cultural influences, or that what we these days mark as such, should be studied as a whole. This means including Thracia, Macedonia and the coastal regions of present day Turkey, i.e. byzantion, Arkanania etc and all the islands.

The debate whether someone was Greek or barbaroi was not at all clear to the Greek city states themselves. If you would have told a Spartan he was a Greek and therefore an Athenian you probably would have gotten a head-butt or worse.

What we call hellenistic culture is a conglomeration of all sorts of cultures and languages and dialects extending over a much larger area of the region than what is now called the country of Greece itself. Therefore the national pride Greece has of "their" Alexander the Great is ridiculous. If that were so, also Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan among many others could be proud of their "Greek" heritage and origins....

M.VIB.M.

[Macedon]

I think you definetely have a point there, because the entire region under Greek cultural influences, or that what we these days mark as such, should be studied as a whole. This means including Thracia, Macedonia and the coastal regions of present day Turkey, i.e. byzantion, Arkanania etc and all the islands.

The debate whether someone was Greek or barbaroi was not at all clear to the Greek city states themselves. If you would have told a Spartan he was a Greek and therefore an Athenian you probably would have gotten a head-butt or worse.

What we call hellenistic culture is a conglomeration of all sorts of cultures and languages and dialects extending over a much larger area of the region than what is now called the country of Greece itself. Therefore the national pride Greece has of "their" Alexander the Great is ridiculous. If that were so, also Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan among many others could be proud of their "Greek" heritage and origins....

M.VIB.M.

This is not what I am saying. Greekness was not something fluid at any given time. It is of course a fact that a certain people may have been barbarians in the 9th century and Greeks in the 5th, but this has to do with the hellenization process many peoples went through. The Greeks may be the only people who openly speak about such processes without implying that they have been around forever. You are very wrong if you think that Greeks were not Greeks, but "a conglomeration of languages and culture". Their culture was Greek and their languages dialects of the Greek. Running the danger to not seeing through another irony, I will again explain my point.

Greeks were characterized (as ALL peoples) by a variety of dialects and peculiarities in all aspects of culture, but they all perfectly understood their common bonds and heritage. Regional identities were very strong, the Hellenic identity was also strong (again as is the case in a great many cultures and states even today). No one would say to a Spartan that he was a Greek THEREFORE an Athenian. This is just wrong and absurd to the ears of any Greek. They would say that he was a Spartan and therefore a Greek though. the mistake many people make here is that they only compare Macedonians to Athenians and then stress the differences. They never make the effort to make such comparisons between the Athenians/Macedonians and other Greek states to see what is going on. This is a grave mistake, the Athenians are what most people not well schooled in the Greek culture are more comfortable with, they are not "Greece".

You may not believe in cultural continuity, you may resent national emblems, love for one's history and culture, you may see yourself as a "citizen of the world". It is your right, exactly as it is the right of the great many people who care about such staff to cherish their history and such "nationalistic" staff. Alexander the Great has been a Greek cultural element since day 1 and it is ridiculous to claim that any land he stepped on has the right to claim his heritage and history. We have no problem with Egypt or Syria raising statues, because they do it out of admiration, of pure love and respect and they do not make any effort to change history, to create absurd theories to persuade their peoples first and those who prefer learning about Alexander from the Internet rather than studying his exploits second that "Homer was a proto-slav writing in the proto-slavic language the Iliad and the Odyssey, a language later usurped by Greeks to create their own idiom..." or that "the true written and spoken form of the Macedonian language is evident on the middle part of the Rosetta Stone, a script wrongly recognized as Coptic Egyptian, when in fact it is pure Slav..." or "When the Romans came, the Macedonians migrated north to Russia, where they formed the glorious Slavic nation. In the 6th century, they came back to their homeland..." and so many other crap theories they propagandize to their population. Respecting Alexander and his history is one thing, usurping Alexander by changing his history is another.

Again, it is your right to be above all that, but, what you have not commented on, is that apart from the "history", there are also political allusions, which cannot be viewed as anything else BUT provocative.

Again, if you would like to discuss and not just make fun, we could do it, but laughing at our national pride is becoming tiresome and provocative too.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

This is not what I am saying. Greekness was not something fluid at any given time. It is of course a fact that a certain people may have been barbarians in the 9th century and Greeks in the 5th, but this has to do with the hellenization process many peoples went through. The Greeks may be the only people who openly speak about such processes without implying that they have been around forever. You are very wrong if you think that Greeks were not Greeks, but "a conglomeration of languages and culture". Their culture was Greek and their languages dialects of the Greek.

Greeks were characterized (as ALL peoples) by a variety of dialects and peculiarities in all aspects of culture, but they all perfectly understood their common bonds and heritage. Regional identities were very strong, the Hellenic identity was also strong (again as is the case in a great many cultures and states even today). No one would say to a Spartan that he was a Greek THEREFORE an Athenian. This is just wrong and absurd to the ears of any Greek. They would say that he was a Spartan and therefore a Greek though. the mistake many people make here is that they only compare Macedonians to Athenians and then stress the differences. They never make the effort to make such comparisons between the Athenians/Macedonians and other Greek states to see what is going on. This is a grave mistake, the Athenians are what most people not well schooled in the Greek culture are more comfortable with, they are not "Greece".

The big problem being that the Athenians often seemed to see themselves as the most important city state of the Greek region, an attitude which not even Rome could stamp out. And still sadly in present day Greece many Athenians think they are better than other Greeks. (city pride?)

You may not believe in cultural continuity, you may resent national emblems, love for one's history and culture, you may see yourself as a "citizen of the world". It is your right, exactly as it is the right of the great many people who care about such staff to cherish their history and such "nationalistic" staff. Alexander the Great has been a Greek cultural element since day 1 and it is ridiculous to claim that any land he stepped on has the right to claim his heritage and history. We have no problem with Egypt or Syria raising statues, because they do it out of admiration, of pure love and respect and they do not make any effort to change history, to create absurd theories

I do believe in cultural continuity up to a point, indeed i do resent national symbols for they have been misused throughout history for as long as they exist. I care about heritage as well as history. I dont resent people expressing love for their culture and history as long as they do not misuse this as being the main reason for discarding other people as being less valuable. By the way, Alexander did not just step on those lands, he conquered them and placed his own generals in power, which after the diadoch wars turned into respectively the Ptolemees and the Seleucids et cetera.

to persuade their peoples first and those who prefer learning about Alexander from the Internet rather than studying his exploits second that "Homer was a proto-slav writing in the proto-slavic language the Iliad and the Odyssey, a language later usurped by Greeks to create their own idiom..." or that "the true written and spoken form of the Macedonian language is evident on the middle part of the Rosetta Stone, a script wrongly recognized as Coptic Egyptian, when in fact it is pure Slav..." or "When the Romans came, the Macedonians migrated north to Russia, where they formed the glorious Slavic nation. In the 6th century, they came back to their homeland..." and so many other crap theories they propagandize to their population. Respecting Alexander and his history is one thing, usurping Alexander by changing his history is another.

What you say is in part of course very very true.

But it seems that not many people know the real reason why the Slavic people of that region became like that. They and others have been inventing their past since long before 1389 : http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pd...omides.pdf

The Slav nationalist distortion of history is a fact i dont dispute, we have dealt with the Serbian-Kroat nationalists during the Yugoslav war. They are just very mentally deranged, especially when you hear their ancient folkloristic war songs about heroic battles, and it is a fact that many Slavs are indoctrinated from a very young age by war mongerers.

The real reason why they lack an own identy and therefore "steal" something Macedonian should not therefore immediately be seen as criminal or evil, it should be seen as sad and pitiful. The Greek anger because of this is as ridiculous as the Greek anger because of the strict EU measures to try and save the country. (The EU could also just kick Greece out, but they dont do that because they somehow still care.)

Again, it is your right to be above all that, but, what you have not commented on, is that apart from the "history", there are also political allusions, which cannot be viewed as anything else BUT provocative.
Again, if you would like to discuss and not just make fun, we could do it, but laughing at our national pride is becoming tiresome and provocative too.

Political allusions are sadly part of the equasion, and not really allowed on this forum. Posting this thread was in itself the wrong thing to do. If one then gets attacked or ridiculed by others, take it in stead of starting to whine. I would like to discuss it further, most definetely from my high seat amongst my collegues on mount Olympus, but to get too political on this board is not a wise road to take.

I am not laughing at your national pride alone, i am laughing at ALL national pride of EVERYONE.

Tiresome you can call it, provocative too. It is done with a purpose, and if it opens your or anyone else's eyes to the ridiculousness and unbelievable pettiness of it all so much the better.

Why cant you stand above some things in life? What does a statue do to you?
What influence does it at all have on your daily life ?

NONE WHATSOEVER !!!!!

That is why i dislike national pride and nationalistic feelings so much, they cause trouble, violence and wars.

National pride can be a good thing, but as soon as people start using it to distinguish themselves from others with the undertone of them being better, and it always ends with that, I myself as well as many of my Martian and Venusian friends, yes, we are proud of our alien planetary heritage and do feel galactic pride, reserve the right to vehemently attack anything they say with our own verbal tsunami and laugh in their faces at the same time.

If they lose their temper or get angry it is immediate proof that they have lost the battle, since they obviously do not know the difference between rhetoric, satire, cynicism and things which can really hurt you.

Emotional attachment to these false feelings of pride is the worst sin of them all.
First remove the beam out of your own eyes before trying to remove a splinter in someone else his eye, to quote a famous man.

The pot calling the kettle black is another very well put statement in this case.....

M.VIB.M.
Supreme council member of the Intergalactic Council for Planetary Heritage and Galactic Pride.

[Marcus Octavian]

As I sit here reading this eating my Gyro, I have come up with a compromise. Build the same statue in other countries and call it the "Alexander The He Was An Alright Guy That Passed Through Here Once". 8)

[Macedon]

Political allusions are sadly part of the equasion, and not really allowed on this forum. Posting this thread was in itself the wrong thing to do. If one then gets attacked or ridiculed by others, take it in stead of starting to whine. I would like to discuss it further, most definetely from my high seat amongst my collegues on mount Olympus, but to get too political on this boars is not a wise road to take.

I am not laughing at your national pride alone, i am laughing at ALL national pride of EVERYONE.

Tiresome you can call it, provocative too. It is done with a purpose, and if it opens your or anyone else's eyes to the ridiculousness and unbelievable pettiness of it all so much the better.

Why cant you stand above some things in life? What does a statue do to you?
What influence does it at all have on your daily life ?

NONE WHATSOEVER !!!!!

That is why i piss on national pride and nationalistic feelings, they cause trouble, violence and wars.

National pride can be a good thing, but as soon as people start using it to distinguish themselves from others with the undertone of them being better, and it always ends with that, I myself as well as many of my Martian and Venusian friends, yes, we are proud of our alien planetary heritage and do feel galactic pride, reserve the right to vehemently attack anything they say with our own verbal diarrhea and laugh in their faces at the same time.

If they lose their temper or get angry it is immediate proof that they have lost the battle, since they obviously do not know the difference between rhetoric, satire, cynicism and things which can really hurt you.

Emotional attachment to these false feelings of pride is the worst sin of them all.
First remove the beam out of your own eyes before trying to remove a splinter in someone else his eye, to quote a famous Judaean rebel.

The pot calling the kettle black is another very well put statement in this case.....

M.VIB.M.
Supreme council member of the Intergalactic Council for Planetary Heritage and Galactic Pride.

As I have already stated M you are entitled to your opinion. As long as your position is clear there is no problem for me, certainly not for having a different view of things. I had to know, though, where you stand so that no unnecessary misunderstandings occur now or in the future. I respect your opinion although I do not abide by it, yet this is why I from the start tried to not get historical or nationalistic. For me this is as important as any state by any means deliberately provoking another. Where are you exactly from?

[Macedon]

As I sit here reading this eating my Gyro, I have come up with a compromise. Build the same statue in other countries and call it the "Alexander The He Was An Alright Guy That Passed Through Here Once". 8)

I think there must be a lot of those...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

@ Macedon.. Netherlands my friend, Netherlands....... xD

But in my genes there must be some Roman or Mediterranean blood, mixed with some Japanese somewhere... Havent done the Haplo test yet

But probably I was conceived on some star ship far far away in the Magellan cloud...... xD

M.VIB.M.

[Caballo]

All, this is now getting political and therefore against forum rules.
M VIB M- please also edit your post to remove bad language/ swear words. Not acceptable.
Second moderator warning, guys.