Re: 1st century Auxiliary cavalry

[jvrjenivs]

Well, once upon a time Roman saddles where rare. Now there are lots of them.

I've to admit that there are now a lot of Roman saddles around. Unfortunately, still most of them are rubbish. We've two of the saddles made by Chris Taylor (available through Comitatus) and both frames did break withing 15 hours of modest use. Although a free repair was done of the first to be broken, this didn't improve much. Now, after it came back from repair, the saddle isn't symmetrically any longer and my beloved horse doesn't walk nicely under it anymore. These saddles are fine for real short use and can made fit most ponys for short time periods, but for more intensive use, I certainly wouldn't suggest any saddles now available on the market. Secondly the girth straps are already coming loose... I would say a rather bad construction is the right term.

We're now setting up our own saddle production, all made to size for our ponys and hope to have replaced these two (almost new) saddles before the end of the year, as well having made a couple more for new riders.

[Vindex]

Rather than hijack this thread any further should we have a seperate one on saddle design discussion as I'm also designing my own?

[John Conyard]

I am sorry Jurjen I have only just noticed your post. You certainly don’t seem to be having much luck. I can of course get the other saddle repaired for you. PM me.

I am not sure I follow your comments regarding size. Your saddle was repaired to the exact size it was before, and the old saddle cover even fitted over the repaired frame. It will fit your horse as it did before. The girth attachments are made of nylon webbing strapped to the frame, they will not break, you can tow a lorry with them. Do you mean the leather straps sewn to the webbing? PM me and I can advise.

It certainly is true we are learning more about saddles all the time. I’ll start a new thread on saddle construction when I find a moment. Modern riders certainly want saddles to fit their horse as a modern saddle does, and want to use modern materials to ensure the saddle doesn’t break. In past years the horns were the weakness, but these are bullet proof on the new saddles. Now the cantle/sideboard joint is the issue and we are currently re-enforcing that with steel. I still believe that the Roman saddle was a military saddle designed to fit most horses with suitable padding. Or even the same horse in good or spavined condition. How well we manage that mirrors the relative success of say British and French cavalry in the Peninsula War, the bad backs of French horses being detectable by their smell. There is an issue around the flexibility of the design which modern reconstructions have yet to fully understand and that materials can compromise. For example the wooden tree needs to flex as does the webbing and cover.

Comitatus has been using the new saddles since last autumn. The covers are well stretched and nicely weathered with oil, beeswax, sweat. They are stronger than our other saddles and seem a good general size for horse and rider.

[Vindex]

Perhaps the wooden tree in the riding saddle is the centre issue? Although modern treeless saddles are also controversial.

I have no problem in believing a pack saddle was reinforced with wood, but that's a different matter.

[jvrjenivs]

John, I've send you some more explanations of the problem by PM.

As for the girthstraps, I mean the modern webbing comming loose from the frame. Certainly not something you want, I would say.

[Crispvs]

John,

Regarding flexibility, what sort of wood are the present saddle trees made of?

People these days often forget that different woods have different properties and whilst I am sure you are not one of them, is there any guarantee that whoever makes the saddle trees understands the differing properties of, say, ash and birch, or the advantages of making different parts of the same item out of different woods to reflect the different functions of those parts?


Crispvs

[MPoole]

Modern riders certainly want saddles to fit their horse as a modern saddle does, and want to use modern materials to ensure the saddle doesn’t break.

I'm confused by this comment, you're saying that before the advent of 'modern' saddles, any old thing was slapped on their backs? What modern materials other than leather, wood and metals are you talking about?

Certainly there have been advances in understanding how to create saddles for use in jumping, working and pleasure riding but fit cannot have been a modern invention.

Or even the same horse in good or spavined condition.

You'd ride a spavined horse? I don't see how a saddle would improve that.

[John Conyard]

Don't be confused. Let me help you.

I am saying that military saddles like the UP and McCellan were and still are made to fit a variety of horses. Troopers were taught a variety of methods to fold their saddlecloths to ensure their saddle fitted. Fit troop horses in good condition could lose weight and condition on campaign, so troopers had to make their saddle fit a heathy horse, and on occassion a spavined nag.

In terms of saddle enquiries I have been asked to quote for supplying a Roman saddle based on a carbon fibre tree. The person wanted to use modern materials to ensure the saddle didn't break. :roll:

[MPoole]

Perhaps you could define what you consider a modern saddle, as the materials are not significantly different over a quite long time span. You've now narrowed your comments to two very specialised saddles, which I am not sure are congruent at all as the designs are fairly divergent and were not included in your original, sweeping statement of 'modern' saddles. I queried the issue of materials and how they differ from Roman and 'modern' saddles.

You use the word spavined like it's some sort of tennis elbow injury to be ignored because the horse will simply go on till it drops. This is a bit worrying.

Being asked to make something that's completely outside the goal of authentic saddlery isn't exactly a good thing. I would hope that instead of supplying such a thing, you'd go back and say that it's neither necessary or correct. If every other part of kit can be produced to appropriate standards, surely the same should apply to saddlery also? The Romans (and other cavalry) were able to do so. Good stable management and horsemanship isn't a modern concept.

[Vindex]

Don't really want to hijack this thread any more but I AM confused by the term spavined nag.

Can I just ask you to clarify that as in my limited knowledge a spavin is a concussive lower leg injury (or a bog spavin - distension of the capsule in the hock joint) and has nothing to do with the back or what the horse is ridden in; a spavin is to do with HOW it is ridden (eg jarring on hard ground).

Or are you referring to what is now called kissing spine?

[John Conyard]

Well Mike and Sue, I am not rying to have an argument with you, and I cannot decide if you are trying to have an argument with me or alternatively we are in some way failing to communicate. So in the hope of the latter I will have another go!

I am defining "modern" saddles as saddles made to fit a specific horse.
And "military saddles" such as the Roman, UP, McCellan, various Napoleonic saddles etc as those that are designed to fit a variety of horses. I am also making the point that while a horse may start a campaign in good condition, it may not stay that way. Please don't be shocked when I say that sick and ill horses were used in war, and some even died. It certainly is "a bit worrying" but we have to face up to it. Please don't even suggest I advocate riding sick or ill horses. Don't even start.

Surprisngly I do not advocate making Roman saddles from carbon fibre either ...... :roll:

As for "spavined nag" I fear I was thinking of a line from Shakespeare - Petruchio's decrepit horse in "The Taming of the Shrew". :lol:

[caiusbeerquitius]

Perhaps the wooden tree in the riding saddle is the centre issue? Although modern treeless saddles are also controversial.

I have no problem in believing a pack saddle was reinforced with wood, but that's a different matter.

Is there any evidence for Roman saddles having a wooden frame? I thought they were more pillow-like, and therefore the bronze horns?

[Crispvs]

Yes, there is evidence. The two shield covers from Carlisle were exactly the same as the one from Valkenburg, except for two things. That is, they were more complete and both had clear stretch marks caused by the bars of saddle frames which seemed to be very similar to the frame Connolly reconstructed. A piece of wood was also found in the same dig which was of exactly the same shape as the curving piece at the front of Connolly's reconstructed frame. This piece had two holes in exactly the points Connolly predicted, as well as a further hole in the apex which is so far unexplained.
The covers were definitely from cavalry saddles as they still had their complete leather 'horns'. The main differences they exhibited from Connolly's reconstruction were that the sides simply hung down (large trapeziform flaps were sewn to the straight edges of the covers which would have hung over the horse's sides and provided a layer between the horse and the rider's legs) and that there does not seem to have been any padding (here we are reminded about Fronto's criticism in the second century AD of cavalry in Antioch who had been stuffing their saddles with straw).
The long (bottom) edges of the Trapeziform flaps were cut into a fringe. These flaps, as well as their fringed edges, can be seen on many 'Reitertyp' stelae.

The fact that both covers had been repaired with patches which had been stitched over worn areas, along with the fact that the side flaps show that the leather could not have been 'sewn under' as in Connolly's reconstruction, show that covers could be removed from frames and this may explain why a number of the the known 'horn' plates have names punched on them. If saddle covers were removed when saddles were not in use, names on plates attached to the horn of the frame would show whose saddle was whose.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the Carlisle saddle covers have yet to be published.

Crispvs

[mcbishop]

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the Carlisle saddle covers have yet to be published.

Sue Winterbottom, 'The Roman stitched sheet leather' in

Howard-Davis, C. 2010: The Carlisle Millennium Project: Excavations in Carlisle, 1998–2001, Volume 2: The Finds, Lancaster

especially pp.827–30 and Appendix 10 on the DVD.

Mike Bishop

[John Conyard]

These are from Winterbottom S. (2006) “On the fringes of empire: recent finds of saddle leather from Carlisle” Newsletter 24 of the Archaeological Leather Group (London 2006) 7-11.


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