Egyptians in the New World?

[Sean Manning]

I'm saying that as far as we know, roundships in the Mediterranean often sailed by the shortest route rather than the one that kept them closest to shore. The Rome to Egypt grain route is another good example (the great grain ships only put in at a Greek port if the weather forced them to). You would have to do your own research on voyages on the Atlantic to decide what would be plausible. A story where one merchant ship ended up in Brazil or the Carribean wouldn't strain my credulity at all ... five hundred years is a enough time for several unlikely things to happen together.

Edit: Without looking at a map and a wind and current chart, I can't think of a strong reason for a fleet off Mauritania to sail far from shore. I just don't think that Greek and Roman sailors were terrified of open water.

[Jona Lendering]

is there any reason that i could use as an excuse for a medium-sized fleet to travel far enough from the moroccan coast to be dragged off by the current?

You can imagine the governor of Tingitana, embarking upon an expedition to investigate the Moroccan coast, and discovering the Capeverdian Islands. That would not be impossible (cf. Agricola wintering on the Orkneys). Island hopping brings them to the west. One big storm, and you have a plausible scenario for ships being dragged off. In two weeks, you can be on one of the Leeward Islands.

I just don't think that Greek and Roman sailors were terrified of open water.

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea describes the route to India. It includes a description of the trip from Aden, over open waters, to southern India (IIRC).

[Praefectusclassis]

Ancient sailors were indeed not necessarily afraid of open water, but you do have to bear in mind that the Med hardly feels like open water: you really have to try to be out of sight of all landmarks (Holden and Purcell's The corrupting sea has a very instructional map). Those areas would be avoided, unless the wind (generally northerly) made your course very predictable. Hence the grainships sailing straight from Italy for North Africa, but not vice versa.

[Nathan Ross]

My point about sailing close to the coast was in reference only to the Atlantic - the Romans crossed the Med frequently and directly. The Greeks too were skilled navigators in the open ocean, and reached India and Britain. However, they knew of the existence of India and Britain; sailing very far west into the Atlantic would be a different matter as they wouldn't be sailing to anywhere, as far as they knew!

It might be possible for a ship sailing south from Britain or Gaul, perhaps wanting to avoid the Bay of Biscay and the dangerous north-west capes of Spain, to end up some way west into the open ocean. Perhaps with a clouded sky they would find navigation difficult, perhaps there might be strong gales from the north-east - they could then perhaps be caught in the Canaries current and carried south and then west. The problem would be that at some point they would realise that they were on a course for the open ocean (of which the Romans in particular had a healthy and reverent dread), and would do all they could to get back eastwards again: after all, as far as they knew there was nothing out there but half a globe of water! Even if they didn't succeed, the attempt would surely slow any westward course across the Atlantic, and make it less likely that anyone would survive to see Barbados...

[ruski94]

why would they try to avoid the west coast of spain or the bay of biscay?

[Nathan Ross]

why would they try to avoid the west coast of spain or the bay of biscay?

The Bay of Biscay is a large basin, basically, of relatively shallow ocean, making it notoriously rough and stormy. It's also right in the way of ships sailing south from the English Channel. Depending on wind and sea conditions, navigators could either try and weather a direct crossing, steer out westerly into the ocean, or keep in close to the coast. Remember that they had no compasses, and had to navigate by the stars - and the Atlantic isn't known for clear skies. This, and poor weather, are why the seas were (officially and religiously) 'closed' to navigation during the winter months: only vital military vessels would put to sea between October and March.

Here's a handy map:


The north coast of Spain is very rocky, and for square-rigged ships sailing south, presents the hazard of a lee shore (which readers of Patrick O Brian will know all about!) - basically, navigators had to avoid being driven onto a rocky coast with the wind behind them. Cape Finisterre (the north-west corner of Spain, if you like) was also dangerous. Unless they were actually heading for Spain itself, ships would have to try and get as far west as possible, therefore, to avoid these hazards. This might be one of the few reasons for an ancient merchant ship to find itself very far out west in the Atlantic.

[ruski94]

Thank you for that wonderful explanation! It puts up another interesting scenario for me to look into! If that were to happen, where do you think the ship would land?
BTW, I can't see the map.
Also I found out in this wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_exped...ran_Africa

One of the most interesting pieces from it states that "...[a]ccording to Pliny the Elder, the Greek Xenophon of Lampsacus stated that the Gorgades (Cape Verde islands) were situated two days from "Hesperu Ceras" (today called Cap-Vert), the westernmost part of the African continent, showing a knowledge of the area by the Romans. They even knew of the Hesperides: some researchers, like Duane Roller, have even identified the Hesperides with the Lesser Antilles.Furthermore, according to Pliny the Elder and his citation by Gaius Julius Solinus, the sea voyage time crossing the Gorgades (Cape Verde islands) to the islands of the Ladies of the West ("Hesperides", actual São Tomé and Príncipe and Fernando Po) was around 40 days: this fact has created academic discussions about the possibility of further Roman travels toward Guinea and even the Gulf of Guinea. Indeed, a Roman coin of the emperor Trajan has been found in Congo"

[Quintas]

hi being new here. but have to put in my two cents if got caught in storm would probollie come a shore in the gulf of mexico on the texas coast

[ruski94]

from where?

[Quintas]

as legand goes 7 roman ships were forced out to
sea on a return trip from b
Brittain loaded with soldiers and pearl

[Epictetus]

Nathan has a good point, and he is also bolstered by a Roman mistake regarding geography in that region.

Britain is the largest island known to Romans: as regards its extent and situation it faces Germany on the east, Spain on the west(1)...

(1) The error of conceiving Spain as west of Britain, in spite of the testimony of the explorer Pytheas (c. 325 BC) accepted by Eratosthenes (c. 250 BC), lasted until the second century after Christ.

Tacitus, Agricola, 10, Note by Hutton and / or Ogilvie in Loeb Classic Library Tacitus I

You could consider a ship sailing a bit too far to the west, in the mistaken belief that Spain was west of Britain.

We discussed the idea of sailing the Atlantic in this thread, which might interest you.

[Jona Lendering]

This old thread may be useful too.

[ruski94]

this is a bit off topic but would their be fishing nets or something that could be used to catch fish on the ships? So that when the ship's crew begins running out of food they could fish. Also did roman sailors know how to make salt water into drinkable water?

[Jona Lendering]

this is a bit off topic but would their be fishing nets or something that could be used to catch fish on the ships? So that when the ship's crew begins running out of food they could fish. Also did roman sailors know how to make salt water into drinkable water?

I think that nets were pretty common on board of ships, but desalination must have been difficult; at least, I have never heard of it.

[ruski94]

what other useful supplies would they have on the ship?