By The Sword - Spatha

[StephenCurtin]

this sword sold at Bonhams seems to have a grip very similar to the one we've been discussing www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/WService=wslive_pub/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=4687936&iSaleNo=17855&iSaleSectionNo=1#

[Joze Noriker]

Here´s an other excellent swordsmith. He´s also an expert in metallurgy.
XorX

Oh yes - he is good smith. He made spatha for the Renatus/Gentes Danubi.

Joze

[Crispvs]

I notice that Bonhams say that the sword is late first century AD but to my eyes it looks later, perhaps late second or early third century. What do other think?

Stephen,

If your chosen period is 4th-5th century, that would put it rather later than most of the swords known from the Nydam and Illerup bog sites. You have also mentioned quite a wide period and might need to be a bit more specific. Early on in the fourth century AD you might have a soldier still carrying a sword like the one from Koln whereas by the late fifth century AD sword would be much more likely to resemble Migration Period swords, the main differences being in terms not of blade shape but handle and scabbard styles.

Before you make any hard and fast choices about buying items of kit, decide what period you want to represent. Make it a fifty year period at the very most and then check to see what we know can be fitted into this period. Think in terms perhaps of early 4th century, mid 4th century, late 4th century, early fifth century, mid fifth century.
Although we know less about these periods than some earlier periods we still have a good deal of information for the later periods which allow us to track some of the changes which took place during this time. As well as sword styles you would need to think of the development of clothes and their decorative styles, as well as developments and changes in belt styles.

It would also be worth thinking about what sort of soldier you wanted to portray, as for the last century of the empire prior to deposition of Romulus Augustus the term 'Roman soldier' might mean a number of equally valid things. It might mean a member of the committatensis field army, a member of the limitanii border/garrison troops, a member of an irregular numerus or cuneus or a Germanic foederatus. Then again it might mean a private retainer of a wealthy magnate. Again, some of these groupings would have changed during the period in question.

I hope this hasn't muddied the waters too much.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I recall a lot of people saying this was a fake when it first appeared! I'd be interested in hearing what people think too!

[StephenCurtin]

Hi Crispvs, well though I would be very interested in hearing about the changes and developments in hilt and scabbard styles of the entire 4th and 5th centuries, If I were to pick a point which I'm most interested in it would be the from about the year 380 to 420. As for what kind of soldier I'm most interested in, it would have to be those of the roman field army.

[Medicus matt]

If your chosen period is 4th-5th century, that would put it rather later than most of the swords known from the Nydam and Illerup bog sites.

Illerup certainly, but were now up to 6 different Nydam excavations, with the bulk of the deposits occuring between the mid 4th and mid/late 5th.

Ejsbøl I is another good one to look at for 4th-5th century hilt construction hilt evolution but only in the context of what was happening in the Barbaricum. Possibly of less value to someone interested in the equipment of the field army in the 5th century.

[StephenCurtin]

Hi guys,

The only reason I brought up Illerup Adal, is because it seems to be a point in time where the older "classic" style and the newer "flattened" style of hilts were in use alongside each other. And if you look at the OP, I've asked whether the classic style was used later than Illerup, and if the flattened style was used earlier. So, although I'm looking for info on 4th and 5th century spathae, I was also asking if these 3rd century styles continued on aswel. Thanks again folks, and while I'm here I just thought to ask, I've seen many grave slabs of roman soldiers of the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, and some of the 3rd, but I cant remember seeing any from the 4th or 5th, did this tradition even continue that late, and if it did, are there any good online resources to view them? Thank in advance.

[Crispvs]

Remember that the 'classic' style (I assume here that you are meaning the Mainz and Pompeii styles) was only one step (or two steps) in a long line of hilt developments and was neither at the start or the end of this. Don't forget also that between these hilts and those found at Illerup, there were also ring pommels and hilts such as the one from Lyon.

The period AD380 - AD420 is well outside my area of expertise but a quick look through Miks should reveal a number of hilts which fall inside your chosen period. My German is not terribly good though so it might be useful if someone with a better command of the language (Christian?) could have a look too.

For a belt appropriate for the period you might go for one like the Dorchester or Winchester examples and for clothing you might want to be thinking about square motifs rather than round orbiculli decorations on your tunic.

Crispvs

[StephenCurtin]

Thanks for the tips Crispvs.

[Crispvs]

To add to what I said above, I would also suggest that a Baldenheim type spangenhelm would possibly be the most appropriate type of helmet to go for for a field army soldier of that period.

The thread was supposed to be about swords though, so sorry to be OT.

Crispvs