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Ancient army numbers
Quote:Did I ever write such thing?

Actually if you read my post above you can see that I wrote that Arrian most likely had no freaking idea how big were Macedonian casualties.

If he had no freaking idea about a truth, he could not deliberately hid it.

Arrian had no idea himself, so he read his books. His books wrote some numbers, he thought they were realistic and so he wrote them in his story. Him having no idea at all and then inventing numbers is wrong to assume.


Quote:I think you are wrong here.

But if you aren't wrong then it means that Persian casualties must have been relatively low as well.[quote]

Nope.. yet I agree.. Persian casualties during the battle itself would have been low too. It is during the hours after they broke that all hell broke...

Peter post=316328 Wrote:Actually you are wrong - Arrian and also others describe cavalry charging into each other and even into infantry and baggage train. For example:

[quote=Arrian, Anabasis, III, 14](...) Simmias and his brigade were not yet able to start with Alexander in pursuit, but causing the phalanx to halt there, he took part in the struggle, because the left wing of the Macedonians was reported to be hard pressed. In this part of the field, their line being broken, some of the Indians and of the Persian cavalry burst through the gap towards the baggage of the Macedonians; and there the action became desperate. For the Persians fell boldly on the men, who were most of them unarmed, and never expected that any men would cut through the double phalanx and break through upon them. When the Persians made this attack, the foreign prisoners also assisted them by falling upon the Macedonians in the midst of the action. But the commanders of the men who had been posted as a reserve to the first phalanx, learning what was taking place, quickly moved from the position which they had been ordered to take, and coming upon the Persians in the rear, killed many of them there collected round the baggage. But the rest of them gave way and fled. The Persians on the right wing, who had not yet become aware of the flight of Darius, rode round Alexander's left wing and attacked Parmenio in flank. (...)

Yep... what is this describing? Can it be that it is talking about the action in the Greek camp, when the unruly "Persians" were caught pants down, carrying off loot and slaves?

Quote:Another fragment is already above (the one when he mentions sixty killed Companions).

And there are other fragments too.

I described you the mode of fighting of the doratophoroi in contrast to the javelineers. Find the rest of the quotes.

Quote:Only light cavalry fought like this, while heavy & medium cavalry - and both sides had numerous heavy & medium cavalry at Gaugamela - fought in a completely different way (well, medium cavalry sometimes carried both javelins and sidearms + shields - so they could fight both ways).

And by the way even light cavalry sometimes fought "unlike normally".

Wrong, and Arrian of all historians is all too clear about that. I will return to this later.

For example check the Gaius Sallustius Crispus' account of the Jugurthine war.

Quote:While describing the battle at the outskirts of Zama (a much later one, against Jugurtha) in 108 B.C., Sallustius (59.) writes:

"(...) during the fight Numidian cavalrymen, self-confident (...) contrary to the usually applied tactics consisting of attacking and retreating*, were directly knocking against the enemy, breaking their battle array and sowing confusion into their ranks; hereby (...) almost achieving victory over Romans."

*So called skirmishing.

So here Sallustius gives an example of light cavalry (Numidians) fighting like heavy cavalry.

No, Salustius gives an example of a non-regular cavalry fight. Read the account of Polybius regarding Cannae and you will find the exact same comments. The same is also described by Arrian whenever cavalry (so-called heavy, mostly by us) acted in a non-ordinary manner.

==============================

Edit:

Quote:And for example Macedonian sarissophoroi lancers - although being lightly armoured (light cavalry) - also fought like heavy cavalry, using their lances. Especially they fought like this after being incorporated to Companions (before that they played mainly the role of scouts, IIRC, but sometimes also charged enemy lines).

Sarissophoroi weren't the only lightly armoured, but still shock lance-armed cavalry formation in history. For example in Medieval times and Early Modern Era there were also such cavalry formations in Europe, which were very lightly armoured (sometimes had no armour except of shields - which sarissophoroi also most likely had, as well as helmets) but armed in very long lances and fought as shock cavalry - not skirmish cavalry.

? Where exactly do we have the Prodromoi hippeis fight? And where is their manner of combat discussed? Nowhere does Arrian use them in battle. At Issus they just stood behind the battle-line making it sure to keep the Persian light infantry on the mountain.
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Messages In This Thread
Ancient army numbers - by Dithyrambus - 02-12-2012, 01:25 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:09 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:10 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:23 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:26 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:28 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:35 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 03:37 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:44 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 04:31 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 07:08 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 08:11 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 08:38 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 08:46 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 09:17 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Ancient army numbers - by D B Campbell - 02-12-2012, 10:48 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Ancient army numbers - by sonic - 02-13-2012, 01:08 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-13-2012, 01:13 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-13-2012, 02:06 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 05:58 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 06:12 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:13 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 06:30 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:23 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:43 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:47 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:52 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:55 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 09:19 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Epictetus - 02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-13-2012, 02:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 06:01 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 06:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:02 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-13-2012, 07:54 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:29 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-13-2012, 08:43 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 09:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by PMBardunias - 02-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-14-2012, 02:34 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by rrgg - 02-14-2012, 03:45 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-14-2012, 03:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 05:33 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-14-2012, 06:42 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 08:51 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-14-2012, 06:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-14-2012, 06:19 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 09:20 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-14-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-15-2012, 05:24 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Eleatic Guest - 02-15-2012, 06:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:28 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:30 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:46 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-15-2012, 09:35 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 09:59 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:01 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:04 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-15-2012, 10:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:36 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:45 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:52 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 11:37 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 12:09 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:17 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 02:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:28 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 03:45 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-16-2012, 03:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 07:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Draconis ( Tom) - 02-16-2012, 07:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-16-2012, 08:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 08:28 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-16-2012, 08:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 08:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 08:58 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 09:54 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 09:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:02 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-16-2012, 11:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 01:03 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 01:14 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-17-2012, 01:40 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 03:10 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 03:13 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-17-2012, 04:40 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 06:06 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 06:11 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 06:18 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 06:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 09:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-17-2012, 11:38 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-18-2012, 12:17 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by sonic - 02-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-18-2012, 01:53 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-18-2012, 05:22 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-18-2012, 04:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-18-2012, 05:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-18-2012, 05:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-18-2012, 05:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-21-2012, 07:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-21-2012, 08:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-21-2012, 09:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-21-2012, 09:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012, 09:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-21-2012, 09:53 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-22-2012, 04:31 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-22-2012, 07:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-22-2012, 11:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-23-2012, 03:07 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-23-2012, 03:53 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-23-2012, 04:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-23-2012, 04:19 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-23-2012, 08:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by diegis - 02-23-2012, 08:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-23-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Lyceum - 02-23-2012, 09:15 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-24-2012, 01:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-24-2012, 08:35 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-25-2012, 08:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-26-2012, 04:37 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-26-2012, 05:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-27-2012, 02:02 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-28-2012, 07:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 07:53 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 08:58 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 09:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Tom - 03-01-2012, 12:24 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 03-01-2012, 04:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-11-2012, 11:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-12-2012, 07:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-12-2012, 08:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 03:29 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 10:20 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 05:32 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 05:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 05:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 06:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 08:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 09:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 04:16 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 06:08 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 07:14 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:02 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 09:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:57 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 08-04-2012, 07:01 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-10-2012, 07:50 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-10-2012, 08:47 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-10-2012, 11:47 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 12:29 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-11-2012, 02:34 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 03:42 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 04:13 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-11-2012, 11:30 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Virilis - 09-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-14-2012, 12:29 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2012, 05:26 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 09-14-2012, 06:16 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 10-19-2012, 02:43 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-03-2012, 06:04 PM

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