Spartan hype?

[Paullus Scipio]

By this logic the Spartans should never have agreed to the accord described above

They didn't have a choice ! Leadership among Greek city states in Alliance was always fraught with difficuly - we hear of leadership/pride of place being alternated on a daily basis because Allies could not agree. As Xenophon tells us, leadership depended on whose territory the Allies were in, obviously because that state was most threatened.
Surely you won't denigrate Xenphon as a source, merely to promote your own tactical theory? :o

I think you sell the Spartans short tactically- but most do

Hardly !! I thought it was me who was arguing for sophisticated Spartan tactics/drill/ manouever on the Battlefield, and you saying that the Spartans could barely move from open order to close order?? P
You seem to have changed your ground !

[PMBardunias]

They didn't have a choice ! Leadership among Greek city states in Alliance was always fraught with difficuly - we hear of leadership/pride of place being alternated on a daily basis because Allies could not agree.

This has nothing to do with my doubting Xenophon. You would be amazed at how many things I get my kids to do that they think was their idea. They could have demanded alternation of days as you point out, then done a Varro and chosen the day to fight. Since so many of the allied forces on both sides were Arcadians, the chances of the battle occuring in Laconia would seem pretty slim. Surely you agree it was at least weighted against a Laconian battle site (there are so few).

Hardly !! I thought it was me who was arguing for sophisticated Spartan tactics/drill/ manouever on the Battlefield, and you saying that the Spartans could barely move from open order to close order??
You seem to have changed your ground !

The marching band at my university can do this drill as well, but to my knowledge they fight in disarray.

I do not doubt that spartans could do all of the things you describe, and some you haven't. Being able to do it in special circumstances does not mean it was regularly used in the anscestral struggle of hoplite-vs-hoplite.

First you say they charged at the run, herd instinct takes over and they lose formation, then you say they fought with overlapped shields in synapsismos 'locked shields' - 1 cubit per man fontage, 18 imches, 45 cm , packed tightly and only able to shuffle forward slowly? ?

Lets agree to suspend this for now, but I will clarify a bit. I believe that they formed for the advance in close order, probably shields overlapped. The they advanced. The confusion stems from the fact that I have conceeded the notion that they cannot hold formation in the charge, for there are many who believe this. I am of two minds and I believe as you do that this is exaggerated. Whatever happened in the charge they had to reform/stay formed to engage, again with overlapped shields.

There are many things which have been suggested, like hoplites crashing into the enemy phalanx like kamikazi rams at the end of the charge, that I don't necessarily agree with, but alter my scheme little should they be true. Your 6 rank hypothesis falls into this. Other things- like opened order fighting- are irreconsilable for me.

[Paullus Scipio]

They could have demanded alternation of days as you point out, then done a Varro and chosen the day to fight.

Perhaps, but would their allies have agreed ? The Mantineans and Spartans had recently come close to a war because the Mantineans chose to build a wall around their city, and the Spartans, as hegemon in the Peloponnese, tried to dissuade them (King Agesilaus was sent to demand that the wall construction be postponed, and the Mantineans refused, despite Agesilaus unsubtle threats about consequences.)Given this, and as you say, the lesser threat to Laconia, would a city such as Mantinea, when its very survival was at stake, have ceded leadership in its own territory to Sparta ?? ( who might well have let the Thebans destroy Mantinea for them! hock: ) .Combine this with the fact that 'Allies' are often portrayed as reluctant to be on a battlefield ( see e.g. Coronea above) and you can see why what Xenophon described was the only practical way.

The marching band at my university can do this drill as well, but to my knowledge they fight in disarray.

Yes, but that's because they haven't been taught proper Aspis/Dory fighting !! :lol: :lol:

Being able to do it in special circumstances does not mean it was regularly used in the anscestral struggle of hoplite-vs-hoplite.

Agreed, one only has to look at the South Korean riot police clips of drill and how this becomes simplified and even non-existent under the stress of combat ( see e.g." Late Roman Formations" thread)

Lets agree to suspend this for now

Yes we'd better- for I suspect we are in danger of 'upstaging' your article. If we wait for it, being longer and more detailed than is possible here, it can provide a good foundation for discussion.

...probably shields overlapped...again with overlapped shields.

Here is one point where we are going to disagree! (see points about synaspismos/pyknosis above) - shields close, touching even, occasionally overlapping accidently maybe, but certainly not significantly overlapped or testudo fashion... because the Hoplite needed to defend himself, if no other reason ! I won't take this further at this time, but there is plenty of evidence in the sources to support this, and, AFIK, little to support synaspismos/overlapped shields as the Hoplite norm - again doubtless your article will tell us more on your reasons for thinking this!

Your 6 rank hypothesis falls into this. Other things- like opened order fighting- are irreconsilable for me.

Agreed on the open order fighting - I don't believe this happened. Of course having said this I don't doubt that it happened on occasion - what we are discussing is a hypothetical 'ideal' model of Hoplite fighting, to which every battle will have been an exception in some way !! :!:
I think both the 'shoving' and 'non-shoving' schools are right and wrong to a degree, and that battle could be both disciplined and chaotic by turns.
If I am right about e.g '12 ranks' being the 'natural'/normal/open order, then closing up to 6 ranks deep/close order for the charge at about 100yds (just outside effective missile range, or charge distance) then many of the apparent differences between the schools as to what the rear ranks were for, disappear.
Oh dear ! Perhaps a consensus is going to be possible after all !! D lol: 8)

BTW at Coronea, the Thebans may have begun their charge at 200 yds, thinking the enemy would do the same and both cover the normal distance - but the experienced enemy waited 'til they were within 100 yds before charging, thus making the Thebans cover 150 yds to the Spartans 50 - c.f. Caesar v. Pompey at Pharsalus for a similar ploy, which on that occasion failed.

[Idomeneas]

as far as the marching and running in order i must say that is not that difficult. It only takes 2 weeks of trainning. Offcourse we are talking about jogging not sprinting. It doesnt take that long for people to learn tose stuff imo. For example when i was in the army i was surgeant after 2,5 months. Little time after i became the first surgeant of the company (dont know the term in english) apart from other duties i had everymorning to make sure that the men would fill in the ranks for inspection, meanning parading them, ''parking'' them with all those orders and stuff. I was 4 months soldier only and i was handling 164 men (enforced company) till i pass command to the officer of the day and he in turn to his superiors. Its not that hard. Apart the fact that you have to shout as if you are selling tomatoes and watermellons in public market :wink: :lol:

[PMBardunias]

Xenophon described was the only practical way.

We're arguing apples and oranges. I only point out that Spartans were more than happy to be on the right flank of the advancing theban column for tactical reasons. The fact that this was almost assured by the geopolitical situation just simplifies the situation. (I'm sure Agiselaos cried his eyes out to think of those poor Mantineans getting hit by the Theban column.)

I have never seen it suggested that the Spartans specifically tried to hit them in the right or rear- as Xenophon suggests for Koronea and lays out in the Cyopaedia. This is why I brought it up, if true it puts a very different face on the battle. And if someone could prove it for me, then I'd have a ready reply for the one hundred million and first time I hear "those tactically stagnant spartans were incapable of adopting the super-cool theban tactics or even coming up with a response."

Yes, but that's because they haven't been taught proper Aspis/Dory fighting !!

You have obviously never seen a co-ed with an oboe. :wink:

Yes we'd better- for I suspect we are in danger of 'upstaging' your article.

Very much so- I only had 2,500 words! By the way, the illustration is going to be even better than my article and will go a long way in showing what could be done even with locked shields

BTW at Coronea, the Thebans may have begun their charge at 200 yds

This is an excellent point. If you can show that those phalanxes facing Spartans waited longer to initiate their charge- knowing spartans would not charge equally fast- I think you could almost prove this.

[Paullus Scipio]

We're arguing apples and oranges. I only point out that Spartans were more than happy to be on the right flank of the advancing theban column for tactical reasons. The fact that this was almost assured by the geopolitical situation just simplifies the situation. (I'm sure Agiselaos cried his eyes out to think of those poor Mantineans getting hit by the Theban column.)

Yeah ! I bet you are dead right about that ! Interesting, we know that according to one tradition, a spartan fatally wounded Epaminondas with a sword, whilst in Diodorus he dies of a spearhead embedded in his chest. The Athenians credited his death to a Mantinean. If he was slain by a Spartan, then since the Thebans faced the Mantineans, maybe the Spartans did wheel into the Theban flank ( Epaminondas would have been on the right flank, nearest the Spartans.) However the account of Xenophon is brief, and Diodorus, quoting Ephorus, is possibly corrupt in places. Xenophon tells us that the Mantinean side were taken by surprise, and did not put up a fight for long -"By overwhelming the force against which he struck ](the 7000 Mantineans, and possibly the right flank of the Spartans if the 15,000 strong Theban phalanx overlapped ) ,he caused the whole enemy army to turn and fly. But he himself fell in this attack..."
and the Thebans, dismayed , failed to follow up.Xenophon's account is brief, and he ends his history abruptly here, probably because one of his sons was killed serving with the Athenian cavalry ( the Athenians won on their wing).

You have obviously never seen a co-ed with an oboe.

Mmmm.mm...mm co-eds !! wink: (to paraphrase Homer Simpson!)[color=blue]

[PMBardunias]

Diodorus, quoting Ephorus, is possibly corrupt in places

That's a pretty good general commentary on Diodorus. He presents Epaminondas wounded by a thrown spear. It has been suggested to me that this came from light troops covering the retreat, but frankly I think any light troops, not sure what they would be doing on the theban right, would be CYA at this point and running a heck of a lot faster than the hoplites. I think the story is to make his death more heroic. It was always excusable for a great warrior to be brought low by the cowardly "spindles" of effeminate missile troops- like Achilles.

the Athenians won on their wing

I am chronically hard on the Athenians- it's a Spartan thing. They might have been expected to win on their wing since the thebans so weighted the left, but I do wonder if there was more expected of them. Whatever it was, the "suprise" attack of the thebans and the inability of the right to hold long negated it.

[Paullus Scipio]

Quote:
the Athenians won on their wing


I am chronically hard on the Athenians- it's a Spartan thing. They might have been expected to win on their wing since the thebans so weighted the left, but I do wonder if there was more expected of them. Whatever it was, the "suprise" attack of the thebans and the inability of the right to hold long negated it.

Doubt if you will, and perhaps accuse Xenophon ( an Athenian) of bias - though if anything he was pro-spartan/pro-Agesilaus, but Epaminondas' surprise attack could not have 'negated' the Athenian victory on their wing - after all, both sides raised a trophy claiming victory, both sides requested their dead under truce etc .

[PMBardunias]

No, I love Laconophilic Athenians- which is most of the famous ones. I don't mean it negated the victory, I just wonder if there were more elaborate flanking maneuvers expected of the Athenian cavalry. If so it would make Xenophons fantasy battle in the Cyropaedia really just a way of having the same unit conduct both "tricks" that the allies had planned for thebes.