Quote:I understood there to be a find of Seg and other stuff associated with an Auxilliary.
The copper alloy fittings (hinges, lobate and otherwise; buckles; hooks) are reasonably common finds from Roman fort sites, so much so that Gunter Ulbert (reporting specifically on his excavations at Rißtissen in 1970) suggested that auxiliaries were wearing the 'lorica segmentata'. It was fashionable in the 1970s and 1980s to adopt this theory. My impression is that it's less fashionable now -- largely down to the good Doctors Bishop & Coulston, I think.
The basic problem is that -- discounting Trajan's Column -- there is still no definite iconography proving the theory that only legionaries wore this type of armour and auxiliaries didn't. (Of course, we simply assume that all the men on TC who are not wearing the 'lorica segmentata' are auxiliaries, and all the men who are wearing the 'lorica segmentata' are legionaries, but there's no proof.)
Thanks Eduardo for posting the article! It is a very remarkable discovery!
I have found another article that speaks of the recovery (but the source of the author is Diario de Léon.es). Nevertheless he published an image of a part of a cuirass, in associating to the sentence: "En aquella excavación se extrajo parte de la coraza de un legionario, que hoy puede contemplarse en una vitrina del Museo de León" "In this excavation was extracted from the shell of a legionnaire, which today can be seen in a showcase at the Museum of León"
While breaking down one stereotype that only Legionaries wore segmentata and Auxiliaries mail or scale, another stereotype was ignored. It was still believed back then that Auxiliary forts were only manned by Auxiliaries and Legionary Fortresses were only manned by Legionaries.
It was forgotten that the forts etc..were in the main built by the Legionaries and it is now believed that there is evidence for detachments of Legionary troops at many 'Auxiliary' forts. This would explain the finds of 'lorica segmentata' on Auxiliary sites if you believe The Lorica Segmentata was exclusively Legionary.
The grave finds are harder to explain but knowing archaeologists I am sure there are several explanations.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Thats just it, Mike. I had heard there was evidence of this.
But now I wonder if the evidence is that stated above by Duncan.
Surely though if the fortress was used by auxillary, then the evidence would point to it being used by them?
The impression I have gotten is that this has become fashinable now, while before, everyone went with the interpretation garnered from readin T's C.
Cetainly this idea has only been put forward on here in the last couple of years.
When I first started re-enacting , it was cut and dried(so to speak) mile:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Matt Collettivs Ave post=312826 Wrote:"Only the legionaries, and sometimes the Praetorians, wore armor as found in the mansion of Victor de los Rios. The auxiliary forces, however, carried the lorica hamata (chain mail) or lorica squamata (scale armor of overlapping metal). Due to its particular structure, the construction of the lorica segmentata was very expensive, hence, between the II and III, this type of armor used stopped."
Ouch, quite a bit mistakes made there!! hock:
Only legionary wearing the segmentata.. we're past that, aren't we? Plus, construction of this armour is attested, especially for this very region, into the 4th century. More expensive than other armour? That's unproven as far as I know..
Hey I only quoted what the article said, their words not mine mile:
Thanks Graham, so the were grave finds, I wasn't sure if I remembered that correctly.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Quote:The basic problem is that -- discounting Trajan's Column -- there is still no definite iconography proving the theory that only legionaries wore this type of armour and auxiliaries didn't. (Of course, we simply assume that all the men on TC who are not wearing the 'lorica segmentata' are auxiliaries, and all the men who are wearing the 'lorica segmentata' are legionaries, but there's no proof.)
But when you see images like this from Trajan's column:
It is hard to dispute that we are led to believe, whether it be the truth or artistic interpretation that the legionaries are all wearing segmentata, their scutums laying around. Then you have the two soldiers in the middle with oval shields, not wearing segmentata, we are meant to believe they are auxiliaries.
Auxiliaries may have worn segmentata at some point, but in the first century/early second century is there any evidence that they did?
Your post rang a bell Byron. Like you I think it might have been something Adrian Wink or perhaps Paul Brown mentioned. I think that must also explain why I have a book called 'Armed Batavians' by Johan Nicolay , Amsterdam Archaeological Studies 2007, on my bookshelf as I think that was one of their sources!
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
What I want to know is what was the context in which it was found. How long will we have to wait for the report, do you think?
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Just food for thought, but it would also seem likely that Rome's re-issuing of "older pattern" materials to the auxillia would explain a lot. Many colonial powers did that with their weapons and gear during the 19th and early 20th century, so it would seem quite possible that the ever efficient Romans would, too.
A friend who was carrer army used to tell me when I asked about 19th century US uniforms, "What a group wore at a specific time depended on which force, where and when" more than any other factors.
Likewise, Auxillia in the 3rd or 4th centuries might have actually been issued 100 year old Lorica while the newer "Roman" legions were using the newer helnmets, mail etc.
Again, just a thought.
Matt
Quote:How long will we have to wait for the report, do you think?
I may be being too negative with my country, but knowing us... quite long. But there are several Spanish archeologist around the RAT, they could probably tell us.
Vindex post=312939 Wrote:How long will we have to wait for the report, do you think?
I may be being too negative with my country, but knowing us... quite long. But there are several Spanish archeologist around the RAT, they could probably tell us.
I don't think it matters which country you're in!. Most archaeological reports take FAR too long to be published. I can hope that there's an article in a periodical first I suppose. :roll:
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Thank you Moi, you're completely right. Tardiness in publishing scientific finds does not depend on perceived 'national characteristics', but on many different variables. In this case, it might take years just to finish the very slow process of restoration of corroded iron, and before stablization is complete and the fragments can be properly joined, drawn and studied. But we'll probably have a preliminary report ASAP.
mile:
