New discovery: loricas segmentatas Leon, Spain

[falcons1988]

What other finds have been discovered apart from the weapons and armour?

[starman2012]

Likewise, Auxillia in the 3rd or 4th centuries might have actually been issued 100 year old Lorica while the newer "Roman" legions were using the newer helnmets, mail etc.

From what I've read, lorica segmentata was still in use down to mid third century. I'd assume a lot of the old equipment was lost for good in the disasters of 251-260, and had to be replaced quickly and as cheaply as possible at a time of diminished resources. Ergo mail and scale replaced lorica segmentata. Another factor was the difficulty of maintaining as well as producing LS. By 4rth century what was left may have been stowed to avoid repair costs due to frequent breakage and "rust traps."

[Robert Vermaat]

From what I've read, lorica segmentata was still in use down to mid third century. I'd assume a lot of the old equipment was lost for good in the disasters of 251-260, and had to be replaced quickly and as cheaply as possible at a time of diminished resources. Ergo mail and scale replaced lorica segmentata. Another factor was the difficulty of maintaining as well as producing LS. By 4rth century what was left may have been stowed to avoid repair costs due to frequent breakage and "rust traps."

That's indeed what I think but alas it's not proven to have been the case. If the segmentata was so difficult to maintain that how can we consider it to have survived for a century as standard issue? I seriously consider the theory that in some parts of the empire they continued to make this sort of armour. After all, the Roman army was no modern type army and there was no 'standard' as we would consider that today. Different types of armour were inuse and could have been produced (in theory) without one replacing the other.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

From what I've read, lorica segmentata was still in use down to mid third century. I'd assume a lot of the old equipment was lost for good in the disasters of 251-260, and had to be replaced quickly and as cheaply as possible at a time of diminished resources. Ergo mail and scale replaced lorica segmentata. Another factor was the difficulty of maintaining as well as producing LS. By 4rth century what was left may have been stowed to avoid repair costs due to frequent breakage and "rust traps."

That's indeed what I think but alas it's not proven to have been the case. If the segmentata was so difficult to maintain that how can we consider it to have survived for a century as standard issue? I seriously consider the theory that in some parts of the empire they continued to make this sort of armour. After all, the Roman army was no modern type army and there was no 'standard' as we would consider that today. Different types of armour were inuse and could have been produced (in theory) without one replacing the other.

As far as I know, until the establishment of the Fabricae the LEgions were supplied with private buisness's armor. The locals, it seems, would continue making what they knew how to make. Ie in the east the locals oftentimes were used to making scale, so scale would be common, and in gaul the locals were used to chainmail, so chainmail would be common.

The Romans used whatever the Locals knew to make, so if they were making Sgmentata still, then the Romans used it.

Just my 2 cents

[starman2012]

That's indeed what I think but alas it's not proven to have been the case. If the segmentata was so difficult to maintain that how can we consider it to have survived for a century as standard issue?

It helped that much of that period was relatively placid, and the State had more money. Not that repair was the main reason for replacement; I think a lot of old armor was just lost and they couldn't afford to replace it unless it was something cheaper like scale or mail. It wasn't just body armor btw, around mid third century some men wore a coif instead of a helmet. I don't see why they'd do that except to save a few denarii. :wink:

I seriously consider the theory that in some parts of the empire they continued to make this sort of armour.

Or maybe it just survived longer in some of the less tumultuous places and was eventually stowed as it aged.

[Robert Vermaat]

As far as I know, until the establishment of the Fabricae the LEgions were supplied with private buisness's armor. The locals, it seems, would continue making what they knew how to make. Ie in the east the locals oftentimes were used to making scale, so scale would be common, and in gaul the locals were used to chainmail, so chainmail would be common.
The Romans used whatever the Locals knew to make, so if they were making Sgmentata still, then the Romans used it.

Sure, but apparently this armour survived into the period when the fabricae were established. btw, I think that the legionary fabricae would be the first place to make this armour, and maintain it.

[Robert Vermaat]

Or maybe it just survived longer in some of the less tumultuous places and was eventually stowed as it aged.

Sure, but thát long? I doubt they could keep it rust-free for that long. But perhaps the pieces that we date to the 4th c. were really rusty by then... :mrgreen:

[starman2012]

Sure, but thát long? I doubt they could keep it rust-free for that long. But perhaps the pieces that we date to the 4th c. were really rusty by then... :mrgreen:

If it were still being produced down to say, 250 some may not have been too far gone in the 4rth century. Btw Spain is pretty dry, which have have minimized the rust problem and prolonged the usefulness of the armor. mile:

[Robert Vermaat]

If it were still being produced down to say, 250 some may not have been too far gone in the 4rth century. Btw Spain is pretty dry, which have have minimized the rust problem and prolonged the usefulness of the armor. mile:

Parts of Spain yes, but the North (where these remains were found) can be quite or even very wet.

[LVCIVS SERGIVS ANTONINVS]

Hello again.

Some new informations about the roman cuirasses found in a storebuilding in Leon, Spain. Most of them are said to be "loricae segmentatae",intermingled with examples of both "loricae hamatae" and "loricae squamatae" types, the last of them less frequent than the former. Article text in spanish.

http://paleorama.wordpress.com/2012/06/1...cepcional/

[Vindex]

As I'll have to rely on google translate, does it give a context date???

[LVCIVS SERGIVS ANTONINVS]

Hello Vindex,

For a context date, the only relevant fragment is the following. I will try to do a quick translation, sorry if it contains some mistakes:

"De barracón a almacén"

"La llegada de la Legio VII Gemina hacia el año 74/75 d.C. supuso importantes cambios, tanto en lo referente a las defensas campamentales como a las distintas edificaciones que se distribuían a lo lago y ancho del ámbito campamental. En el caso que nos ocupa, sobre el antiguo barracón de la Legio VI Victrix’ se levanta ahora un gran almacén en el que se vienen desarrollando los trabajos de excavación con resultados, hasta el momento, muy satisfactorios."

"From barracks to storehose"

"The arrival of Legio VII Gemina around the year 74/75 A.D. brought important changes, concerning both the camp's defences and the several buildings distributed throughout the camp's limits. In the case that occupies us, on top of the previous barracks of Legio VI Victrix stands now a great storehouse in which the excavation works are developing with very satisfactory results for the moment."

[Paul Elliott]

I've just read the chronology conclusions of this Spanish article on the segmentata finds: http://aespa.revistas.csic.es/index.php/...view/31/31

They push the terminus dates of all styles of segmentata forward by 50 years or more. Is this report and its dating accepted or is it contentious?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, I take it from these dates that the touted idea of this find proving the continued use of Segs in Spain long after other places has died a death?

[Robert Vermaat]

Yes, that's the idea.