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FlaviusCrispus · 02-03-2004, 11:39 PM

Avete, comilitones... 
 
A while ago there was a thread in which someone posted the actual, literal Latin commands from Maurice's "Stragikon" (without any of the additions and embellishments made by ESG and Matt Amt seen on most sites). As the thread index seems to be indefinitely down, and I can't seem to find it on the back pages, can anyone direct me to this thread (or repost the commands)? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

**richsc** · 02-04-2004, 05:56 PM

EZBoard has a nasty habit of eliminating threads it considers too old. This is the reason so many of Sander's long and well thought out posts disappeared to his immense dismay. 
This one may have been abducted by ezboard aliens as well. Legio XX 
Fortius Conamur

02-04-2004, 06:53 PM

I remember that Flavius...but was it there, or on RomanArmyGroups from yahoo!? 
 
Damn...what thread was that now? It can't be more than a few days to a week old... 
 
WAIT!!! I saw it on teh VI Victrix website....the one from New York. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

02-04-2004, 09:25 PM

I actually looked at the leg VI site from ny. I missed that one. . 
 
Valete, 
Owain/Cicero/Dave

02-04-2004, 10:01 PM

PS are these late roman commands? If they are I'd be interested in them as well. 
 
Valete, 
Owain/Cicero/Dave

Crispvs · 02-04-2004, 11:42 PM

Dave, 
 
Maurice is definitely late Roman (I think he was writing in the 6th century AD). The reason so many of us first century types use bits and pieces of his drill is that we have little or no information on the drill manual of the first century. I often wonder whether it ever actually existed outside the hardened heads of the centuriones and optiones, taught from one to another, as children's playground games still are. To fill in the gaps we have to substitute bits of something else. Favourites are latin translations of Swedish pike drill and British army drill. 
 
Crispvs

02-04-2004, 11:49 PM

Ave Crispvs, 
 
One thing I noticed on the xx legion's version of commands are the ad scutum and ad gladius for left and right but what about the late romans. They wore their spathas on the left as well as their scuta. 
 
Valete, 
Owain/Cicero/Dave

FlaviusCrispus · 02-04-2004, 11:52 PM

OK, I've gone looking for the commands on the Leg VI - Albany NY site, and failed to find them. In fact, their site seems to be just a non-functioning home page. I wasn't able to make any of the link buttons work. I also looked on Legio VI Ferrata's page, but their Latin drill (commendably long and detailed as it is) is obviously a derivation of Maurice, not the original deal. 
 
I remember distinctly seeing this thread on RAT, though it might have been Military Archaeology or something else. I believe Sander posted the verbatum commands. 
 
And, yes, since the Strategikon was written in the late sixth or early seventh century AD, they are most definitely applicable to the Late Roman army. 
 
As I remember it, Maurice uses a very simplified, truncated (or maybe corrupted?) form of Latin, often the singular form of the verb instead of the plural usually used when addressing a group of people (example "sta!" instead of "state!" for halt). 
 
Sander, are you out there? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis 
California, USA

02-05-2004, 02:01 PM

Ok, hang on...let me find that site I was on again... 
 
Ok, my mistake...it was you guys in Los Angeles.... Sorry! 
 
[url=http://www.legionsix.org/" target="top]www.legionsix.org/[/url] 
 
My mistake Flavius...for some reason i thought it was the NY group. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

02-05-2004, 03:14 PM

Yeah, that's the modified version. I'd like to find the unchanged version. 
 
Valete, 
Cicero

NightHunter24 · 02-07-2004, 05:18 AM

Avete omnes, 
 
I found these 'Roman Military Command Orders' on the web maybe this could be of some help. I don't know how accurate this is though. 
 
www.quiknet.com/~fifi/index21.htm

Matthew Amt · 02-08-2004, 07:23 PM

Judging by the link at the bottom of the page, that's the version used by Legio X Fretensis in California. Looks like they took my adaptations and added further modifications. Yuck, they actually include "Sin sin sin dex sin", ack!! 
 
Sigh.... We have Maurice on the shelf at work, that's where I got it from. (I work in a government military medical library, with a history section.) Guess I'll have to haul it down tomorrow and type it all out for you guys. Fair warning, it is pretty brief yet filled with vagueness and ambiguity. 
 
Valete for now, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

aitor iriarte · 02-08-2004, 07:59 PM

I'm nastily busy to do it, therefore we'll erect you a statue at our praetentura, if you type the commands on the Strategikon, Matt ! 
An interest question is why all they are uttered in singular, not in plural. That cannot be due to corruption, the Latin seems quite correct and commands probably fosilized from the original ones. More opinions? 
Of course, "Sin sin sin dex sin" is not on the Strategikon, nor is it attested elsewhere (I think that this was discussed on a previous thread... ) but we all find it extremely useful. Are there solid arguments to avoid it? 
 
Aitor

02-08-2004, 08:59 PM

I wonder whether the commands might be in the singular because they are addressed to a unit, not to individuals. If you're calling "squad, about turn", you want the SQUAD to turn; you treat the addressees as one body - which, after all, is one of the reasons for drill; to make people act as one. The same word of command can thus be used for any number of people; an individual, a squad, a century. That might matter because in modern parlance a command is divided into a cautionary and an executive part (e.g. "squad, stand at, EASE"); in Latin, the plural form would be longer than the singular form, so you would end up with a different command for a group than for an individual. It's hard enough for recruits to remember when to move when the commands are fixed in length and form, let alone if they have to remember that if they're alone, the command is shorter than when they're in a squad. 
 
As Latin imperatives tend to be shorter and snappier in the singular, they're perhaps better for shouting as well. 
 
Shaun

aitor iriarte · 02-09-2004, 11:33 AM

A really good point, Shaun! 
We should try to work on the Strategikon basis to provide ourselves with a basic set of commands. Some basic and neccessary commands cannot be found on Maurice's books. Maybe romans didn't use them, maybe they had fallen in disuse by the Sixth AD or maybe Maurice simply forgot to include them. Dangerous as it is, we need to 'imagine' them. 
On the other side, Maurice records relatively long sets of phrases uttered by the commander before battle started. They are greatly reminiscent of some formulae written on Dura payri, for instance! 
 
Aitor

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