Latin Drill Commands

[QF VARUS]

Salvete,

We [Legion XXIV] have been working on a revised drill manual that will actually make sense for reenacting the 1st century. Maurice just won't cut it. It's way too late (and in the wrong language).

A great example of what I mean is "LANGIA." This is NOT a classical Latin word--and yet many reenactors are using it. I wonder why.
Our goal is to create a drill manual using Latin vocabulary in use in the 1st/2nd centuries, using words/phrases that the soldiers would have understood. E.g., "Date spatium." Even though this may not have been the actual phrase used by officers in the 1st century, it would have been understood for 'open order.' Another example of an executive order we use is the addition of "NUNC" to a phrase, such as "MOVETE...NUNC." This lets soldiers EXACTLY when to step off. When other units use {phonetically} "MOWAY...TE" they don't seem to realize that Latin didn't "work" this way, and that you're telling the soldier to 'move yourself,' but you're not telling him when to do it.

Another way of looking at it is: why bother to use Latin drill for reenacting if one knows it can't be right?

We welcome any comments/research on this topic. Kudos to Professor Max Nelson (Univ of Windsor) and David Blaine of Legion XXX (Canada) for their excellent assistance on this project.

If anyone emails us, we can send our preliminary work for field testing.

[Robert Vermaat]

Maurice just won't cut it. It's way too late (and in the wrong language).

Al;though i agree that maurice might not be correct for the 1st c., why the wrong language? The commands are given in Latin.

A great example of what I mean is "LANGIA." This is NOT a classical Latin word--and yet many reenactors are using it. I wonder why.

In fact, much of the most common drill commands as developed by the Ermine Street Guard and other commonly used sets, are either based on what we have found in sources, or based on translating modern commands into Latin.

So you have two options:
1) stick to what we have, historically sound but very incomplete for our needs, or
2) make it all up yourself

Our goal is to create a drill manual using Latin vocabulary in use in the 1st/2nd centuries, using words/phrases that the soldiers would have understood. E.g., "Date spatium." Even though this may not have been the actual phrase used by officers in the 1st century, it would have been understood for 'open order.' Another example of an executive order we use is the addition of "NUNC" to a phrase, such as "MOVETE...NUNC." This lets soldiers EXACTLY when to step off.

As long as you understand that what you do is completely speculative, it's as good as what large groups have done in the past.

When other units use {phonetically} "MOWAY...TE" they don't seem to realize that Latin didn't "work" this way, and that you're telling the soldier to 'move yourself,' but you're not telling him when to do it.

That's a discussion I've often had, but jow would we (today) know what 'worked' and did not work? My counter-arguments are twofold:
1) most Roman soldiers would not be speakers of Latin. While that may sound odd, it isn't. Of the citizens, at least half spoke Greek, and of the other half, many continued to speak their own language, needing Latin at best as a second language. Of the auxilia, probably none spoke Latin, or not very well. During late Roman times, many soldiers would have had to learn the language in the first place.
2) even in modern armies, commands are not in correct grammar. As long as the soldier knows what to do, that's no problem. I mean, the command 'salute' does not stipulate who should salute who, but all involved know what to do.

That's probably why Maurikios still uses Latin commands in a Greek-speaking Empire - it was the language of the army and continued to be that for a time, even though (I bet) the commands were not perfect latin. I suspect, with the above points, that it does not mean that 1st c. armies would need to have their commands in perfect Latin either. But that's my opinion.

Another way of looking at it is: why bother to use Latin drill for reenacting if one knows it can't be right?

Sure, you can do it in your own language very well.

[rusty myers]

Reinventing the wheel again eh?

I would at least stick to what is currently accepted... we worked this out for Lafe, and this would yet be another re-training exercise to work together. The folks who watch us do not know what we are saying anyway. Not to discourage you, just hate to see energy wasted redoing something again which I do not think will be markedly better or more accurate. My 2 cents.

Note sure what you mean about folks not knowing when to step off, we use the unit (Milites, Contuberni, Vexilallatio, Centuri) to prep and move to march with no trouble at all. We also use the formal command for forward march, Procedite et Intente, Move (Forward march at Attention, Move). You can also Procedite at Otiose (More relaxed) Testudinum (In Testudo) Laxate (route step) Cuneum (In a wedge) etc etc.

[Magnus]

Salvete,

We [Legion XXIV] have been working on a revised drill manual that will actually make sense for reenacting the 1st century. Maurice just won't cut it. It's way too late (and in the wrong language).

Oh god. I've seen this manual. So much made up stuff in it, not to mention a modern cadence for marching, including a quick and regular march, and NONE of it based on actual evidence, just speculation and how the romans would have done it based on a modern standpoint. Pretty impossible to discern.

So your solution then is to invent something 1,500 years later, using your own modern viewpoints? How is that any better? What, because you're a latin teacher, that somehow gives you better qualifications than when Maurice wrote? I hope you put a GIGANTIC disclaimer on your site, or maybe at Fort Malden the next time you're doing something to tell the public you're educating that what you're doing is completely speculative, and based on your own ideas and not extant evidence! hock:

A great example of what I mean is "LANGIA." This is NOT a classical Latin word--and yet many reenactors are using it. I wonder why.
Our goal is to create a drill manual using Latin vocabulary in use in the 1st/2nd centuries, using words/phrases that the soldiers would have understood. E.g., "Date spatium."

So you're cutting and pasting phrases from what, ancient texts and whipping up your own version of drill commands. Does anyone else here see the inherent inaccuracy by doing this?

Another example of an executive order we use is the addition of "NUNC" to a phrase, such as "MOVETE...NUNC." This lets soldiers EXACTLY when to step off. When other units use {phonetically} "MOWAY...TE" they don't seem to realize that Latin didn't "work" this way, and that you're telling the soldier to 'move yourself,' but you're not telling him when to do it.

Yeah, I remember Malden in 2003, and you guys using that. I was so disappointed with it, especially after having been to Roman Days. Here we are, trying to represent roman reenacting accurately, and the drill commands we were being ordered with is made up by some guy. That's why you won't see Cohort I of the 30th at Malden again. Too many things left to the imagination from the current groups there.

Another way of looking at it is: why bother to use Latin drill for reenacting if one knows it can't be right?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how your solution is even remotely better than what is out there. What's next...Advance to Contact and arrowhead formations for Roman cohorts? How about a drill command for an aussie peel-back using pila to break contact?

We welcome any comments/research on this topic. Kudos to Professor Max Nelson (Univ of Windsor) and David Blaine of Legion XXX (Canada) for their excellent assistance on this project.

Is this the year of inaccurate roman-isms? First the leather musculata, now invented drill commands. Trouble comes in 3's...I wonder what's next. Gore-tex caligae? lol :lol:

This isn't the modern military. Use the KISS principle and you should be fine. Don't make things up because you want to go bigger. Bigger isn't always better...I know the mentality behind what you guys are trying to do. You should stick to what is known, and if you find yourselves getting too big for your britches, maybe it's a better...more accurate idea to tone it back a bit eh?

[Magnus]

Oh, and can you please add your real name to your signature? That's one rule you do have to follow....lol. 8)

[Robert Vermaat]

Another example of an executive order we use is the addition of "NUNC" to a phrase, such as "MOVETE...NUNC." This lets soldiers EXACTLY when to step off. When other units use {phonetically} "MOWAY...TE" they don't seem to realize that Latin didn't "work" this way, and that you're telling the soldier to 'move yourself,' but you're not telling him when to do it.

To clarify my views on this somewhat, there seem to be several ways to pronounce a command.
Some groups shout the order (for instance, PROCEDITE) and I guess a lot of practise makes the soldiers move simultaniously.
Others stress one or more sillables, like:
PROCED...ITE. that works better than just shouting the command.

I was schooled by Legio II Augusta (UK), hence we use:
PROCEDI...TE. The TE gives the exact timing for the soldiers to move as one.

Yes, I know that's a modernism. We don't know if the Romans did it that way, but it's based on the guess that even the Romans needed the soldiers to know when to act on an order.

Did ancient Latin not work that way? Again, how would you know? Modern languages are also commonly 'slaughtered' in military commands...

[griffin]

I would like to put in two cents about Latin pronounciation.

In Classical Latin, the stress always falls on the third from last or the second from last syllable. It nevers falls on the final syllable in any Latin word. So, I think that the move...te idea would be very strange. In fact, movete would be stressed on the first syllable.
Any Latin word with stress on the final syllable would seem very strange to speakers of Latin.

I would prefer the whole word version with the appropriate stress....

[caiusbeerquitius]

Why not using cornu signals?

[QF VARUS]

...Now that brings up another challenge. We would like to use cornu commands also, since it seems rather more likely that many drill command 'problems' are solved this way.

If any other units have developed regular signals, may we have a copy of the music?

John Peddie's [/u]The Roman War Machine contains an interesting discussion on the use of horns in field movement.

Gratias,
Quintus F Varus
(David Smith)[/i]

[QF VARUS]

Thus, with all respect, the practice of saying "move...te" does not comport with the best authorities on Latin of the 1st/2nd centuries.
Rather than seeming pedantic, we are trying to solve a problem in the best way we can.
If units are admitting that this practice is a modernism, why not continue and share the research to the point that we have the best possible practice? If we can use phrases that WERE used in the 1st century [even by civilians], this would be more accurate than using 5th century Latin. After all, if reenactors are going to spend hundreds of hours making their kits, why not try to complete the impression in the same way that actors attempt to recreate dialects?
In my original posting, I asserted that Maurice is the wrong language. What I should have said is that when we examine examples of the words found in Maurice [e.g., 'Langia'], they would most likely have sounded very strange indeed to a 1st/2nd century Roman. Granted, we will never have actual recordings of 1st century Romans, but there many things known about Latin pronunciation [if reenactors are willing to research and study]. If we reenactors expect more credibility from the academic world, we are going to have to study Latin, Greek, history, etc.

The point about ancient soldiers not knowing Latin very well is certainly intriguing--and compelling. I hope the discussion continues...

[rusty myers]

we made up some cornu calls for lafe, on the www.castraromana-pompeii.com site I think. Also our drill manual. (and we do not use Langia either... I had to look it up!) Happy to share calls and commands!

www.castraromana-pompeii.com under Roman Bugle Calls

I need to put it on the leg VI Site too. For what it is worth I never thought the "Te" stuff worked, and we avoided it in the Lafe drills.

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Having worked with Legio VIs proposed calls at Mobile, I think they are a great place to start. They are short and distinctive. Save the long fancy calls for back in camp. Now, if classical Latin rarely stresses the last syllable why try to use that as the command of execution? Wouldn't it be better to have the Centurion bark out the command in proper Latin and then have the cornicien, who is near enough to hear him, play a short call stressing the last note? As our numbers grow we are already seeing problems when half the unit doesn't hear the Centurion's command and keeps on going. How much worse would that be in combat with a full Century? Dogs, U.S. Marines and French Legionnaires respond to the tone of the voice more than the words. Are there three more fierce and loyal breeds? My way, no cornu...no change... at least the formation stays intact. If the Optio sees the Centurio go down he has the cornicien next to him and can take over immediately. If the Centurion's voice or a whistle would work as well, why did they pay a musician, with a dead animal on his helmet and a bent tuba, time-and-a-half to be there.

[caiusbeerquitius]

IMO the commands worked out by Prof. Wilfried Stroh for the Junkelmann march across the Alps in 1985 are the most sensible ones for reenactment use. They tried to work as close as possible with all the sources available.

I always wonder where the point is in marching around in rather modern formations. Spoils all your nice authentic eqipment.

And what really makes me ROFLMAO are the groups using that "Sin-Dex-Sin-Dex" crap. That is so far from anything attested from the Roman period, that those groups might equally wear super-soakers instead of pila.... :roll: Couldn´t spoil the impression more.

[Tib. Gabinius]

Formation moves would be correct in using accustic and visual signs.
So tubicen, cornicen and signiferi would be needed to transfer the commands, and i still only know one person in germany and heared about two or three in other countries, who would be able to play the instruments that accurat.

Also the discussion about the "aequatis passisbus" never will be stop and be solved for all.
So, in my eyes, the bad thing is, that nearly every group develop their completly own commands, which make it much more complicate to work together.
We also use the "sin-dex", cause it's most sensefull to teach hobbiiests the march in the same step.

[QF VARUS]

Salvete,

Longine,

Gratias tibi ago for sending the bugle calls. I think they'll work very well. I agree that there needs to be more usage of the cornu. This is attested by the example from Caesar where he as able to signal "BONA FORTUNA" to his men through horn signals.

Secunde,

Yay for proper Latin! There are many examples in classical Latin for the use of an imperative + 'NUNC.' E.g., "Incipe...nunc." Just Google this phrase and you'll see many more. This was why we started to use "MOVETE...NUNC." This lets the lads know exactly when to step off. Using the practice of the OPTIO at the back of a column (vide Connolly), we have found it's very often easier for the ranks to hear the optio call out the commands rather than hear the CENTURIO in the front. Maybe there were also hand signals from the CENTURIO for certain commands, e.g., "CONSISTITE." [holding up his hand as the CORNICEN earned his pay]

Saturnine,

Do you know where I can get a copy of Herr Doktor Stroh's drill commands?

Bene Valete,