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The Whole North Into Gaul
(05-15-2016, 05:12 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: https://www.academia.edu/s/0abc6dfa17?source=link

I'd appreciate any feedback on my chapter on the battle itself.

I'm a new arrival on the forum so these are off-the-cuff remarks.

First I'm impressed by the erudition of the article. It is very thoroughly done.

Re your request for input, there was a very interesting discussion on the Society of Ancients forum a couple of years back on this topic. I woudl like to take up just one point. I notice you affirm that the Alans were the most reliable of Aetius's allies. This however is not what Jordanes says:


Dextrum itaque cornum cum Vesegothis Theoderidus tenebat, sinistrum Aetius cum Romanis, conlocantes in medio Sanguibanum, quem superius rettulimus praefuisse Alanis, providentes cautioni militari, ut eum, de cuius animo minus praesumebant, fidelium turbaconcluderent.

Now Theodorid with the Visigoths held the right wing and Aëtius with the Romans the left. They placed in the centre Sangiban (who, as said before, was in command of the Alani), thus contriving with military caution to surround by a host of faithful troops the man in whose loyalty they had little confidence.


The latin term for 'surround' is concludere: it means to shut up, enclose, confine, surround, encompass. The implication is that Sangiban had allied troops all around him, not just the sides but the rear too, leaving him no choice but to fight the Huns.

The right flank Visigoths fight Gothic opponents; the Alans fight Huns, notably Attila himself. For a Visigothic contingent to fight Huns suggests a separating between Huns and Gothic allies, which implies the Huns drove the Alans back whilst the Visigoths held firm or advanced against their own opponents. Then we get this:

Then the Visigoths, separating from the Alani, fell upon the horde of the Huns and nearly slew Attila.


Question: who were behind the Alans? The Romans and Auxilia were on the left flank and there is the suggestion that the Romans were weak in cavalry (Thorismund looks like a left flank cavalry guard for the Roman and Auxilia foot). If it was Visigoths who quarterbacked the Alans, then it makes sense that these troops, not yet locked in battle (unlike the main Visigothic army), would be free to swing round the Alans' right flank, now separated from the engaged Visigothic force, and plough into the Huns, nearly killing Attila. Here are some diagrams to illustrate the hypothesis:

The initial deployment:

[Image: chalons1.png]


The race for the ridge. The Roman regular troops and Auxilia, helped by Thorsimund, win the initial fight.

[Image: chalons2.png]


The Alans and Visigoths move up in support of the Roman left. Attila exhorts his men.

[Image: chalons3.png]


The Huns and their Gothic allies attack the Alans and Visigoths. The Alans are driven back whilst the Visigoths stand firm or advance.

[Image: chalons4.png]


A gap opens between the Hunnic centre and their Gothic left wing. The Visigoths behind the Alans detach from them and use this gap to flank the Huns, nearly killing Attila who withdraws.

[Image: chalons5.png]
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-25-2013, 03:28 PM
The Journal of Late Antiquity - by M. Demetrius - 05-26-2013, 12:18 PM
The Journal of Late Antiquity - by D B Campbell - 05-26-2013, 01:11 PM
The Journal of Late Antiquity - by Eleatic Guest - 05-26-2013, 03:36 PM
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The Journal of Late Antiquity - by Eleatic Guest - 05-28-2013, 11:23 PM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 01-12-2014, 02:40 PM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Tim - 02-06-2014, 08:41 PM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 02-07-2014, 01:17 AM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-13-2014, 12:06 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Nathan Ross - 02-13-2014, 12:23 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-13-2014, 12:26 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-04-2014, 05:24 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 05-05-2014, 02:06 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-05-2014, 02:17 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Robert Vermaat - 05-06-2014, 09:46 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-27-2014, 12:04 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-20-2015, 04:38 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin I - 06-20-2015, 06:28 PM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin I - 06-24-2015, 04:49 AM
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The Whole North Into Gaul - by Robert Vermaat - 06-25-2015, 07:35 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-25-2015, 11:34 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-22-2015, 09:55 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 08-23-2015, 06:54 PM
The Journal of Late Antiquity - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-23-2015, 08:05 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 08-26-2015, 06:27 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-26-2015, 11:35 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 08-27-2015, 01:18 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Luka Borščak - 09-02-2015, 05:44 PM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 09-03-2015, 02:25 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Luka Borščak - 09-03-2015, 08:34 AM
The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 09-03-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 02-29-2016, 02:51 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-15-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 05-25-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin I - 05-26-2016, 11:52 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-26-2016, 01:53 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 05-26-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Michael Kerr - 05-26-2016, 02:20 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-27-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin I - 05-28-2016, 04:23 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-28-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 05-30-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Robert Vermaat - 05-31-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-30-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Robert Vermaat - 05-31-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 05-31-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 06-01-2016, 12:19 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-01-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Robert Vermaat - 06-01-2016, 11:45 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 06-01-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-01-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 06-01-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-01-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Justin Swanton - 06-02-2016, 05:41 AM
RE: The Whole North Into Gaul - by Flavivs Aetivs - 06-02-2016, 03:00 PM

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