Frankish seaxes

[ROMan]

Wow, interesting object! If I were asked to identify it, my first reaction would be a single edged sword of an earlier date then the Frankish seax. It shows a number of characteristics I have seen in those swords. Does make me wonder about the provenance, where did it come from and why is it dubbed a seax? The back of the blade (width) could be an indication of its original length, as to balance a blade, the distal taper of the back would start at 1/3 (max) to 1/2 (more likely) of the blade measured from the hilt. The tang seems to have been almost fully enclosed in a wooden hilt, notice how thin it is at the back. The inside of the grip would have the metal of the tang exposed, you can see how a flange has been forged. This is consistent with the Germanic style blades I have seem images of. Would love to do a reconstuction on that piece :-).

I'm afraid that *I* dubbed it a seax! I should have said "odd" "seax". It doesn't look like any seax I have seen, so I left it for a later bit of cataloging! I am thinking of doing some Filipino weapons next so you can see the breadth of types of weapons I am trying to approach! All of this group were purchased from a dealer in Mainz, and we know little more than that they were largely collected in the area. It is thin in places because it is heavily corroded. I can make a drawing and take some more detailed photos if you like.

[Robert]

Oh, I do realise it is thin in places due to corrosion, but then I also look at the adjacent parts for equal corrosion.

You may find this thread of interest, more pictures if you google pictures of "vimose sword"

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.ph...821&page=3

Hmm, I really hate it when dealers ship of finds to foreign musea without proper provenace. This would have certainly been an object of interest, as this type of sword (if it is that) is not very abundant.

[ROMan]

Oh, I do realise it is thin in places due to corrosion, but then I also look at the adjacent parts for equal corrosion.

You may find this thread of interest, more pictures if you google pictures of "vimose sword"

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.ph...821&page=3

Hmm, I really hate it when dealers ship of finds to foreign musea without proper provenace. This would have certainly been an object of interest, as this type of sword (if it is that) is not very abundant.

The corrosion would not be equal in every part of the piece, some of these blades have corroded right through (see 909.15.16 from the original blog with a hole in the blade), but in other parts the blade is in quite good condition.

That's an interesting link, thank you! I would certainly agree with you that the whole issue is somewhat unfortunate, but these objects came to Toronto in 1909 and have been well looked after ever since! It was to make them known among those interested in this material that I wrote the blog and made it known to the RAT folks. Typically dealers don't even know the provenance, as the finders tend to keep that to themselves. As soon as they passed to the dealer their context was lost. Really, there is no good way for major museums to acquire major collections, but at least the ROM does not have the history of the great Imperial museums of London, Paris, and Berlin!

[Robert]

Ohh, but that was a period when "archeologists" were cultural looters in their own right. So no badmouthing your museum intented!! The Guttman collection is also compiled of many, many pieces with no provenance. Nearly all private collections prior to the "60s are rife with unprovenanced objects, so on auctionsites today, there is much more still in circulation with a very questionable pedigree.

Glad you like the link, it may help you get to terms with this nice object. At least it was preserved for prosterity, as you rightly say.

[AlexV]

Hi Robert,

An article from Max martin is aviable there:
http://241-752.forumgratuit.fr/t32-afam-...es-iii-vii

Brievely,he explains that the "sax" for frankish kingdoms must be divided in two parts: the long/thin ones, based on the eastern-cavalry models (L>45/50 cm), and the latest ones, shortest and broadest, also called "kurtzsax".

These Kurtzsax seems to be an adaptation from the late-empire's long-knives, according to him.
This could be fited on the multi-ethnic armies of the frankish kingdoms, with a large part of gallo-romans and a will for some common fight-fashion.

According to the latest classifications of the French archoelogists, we could find, for a frankish aera between the Channel, the Rhine and the Loire:
(all lenght contain the silk)
- model 55 : blade <50cm, thin, 440-530,
- model 56: thin blade, >50cm, same datations,
- model 57, thin blade, L<25cm, 520-610 (and some finds for 480-520 + 610-630),
- model 58: blade between 25 - 35 cm, 570-610 (and some for 520-570 + 610-630),
- model 59, large blade between 25-40 cm, with a little pommel sometimes, and an undecorated metalic mouth for the scabbard, 570-610 (and some for 550-570 + 610-630),
- model 60: large blade, decorated on one side (or two?) with 2 parallel lines, L between 25-40cm (some models are fited with 3 holes on the silk), 610-710,
- model 61: blade between 35-45cm, large one, with the same decoration on one side (or bronze nails on the scabbard), the point of them is an very curved back of the blade. TF= 640-710 (+someones for 610-640),
- model 62: large blade >45cm, with the same decorations, 670-710 (+some for 640-670),
- model 63: the same as the "62", but with a longer silk (from 18 - 25 cm), 600-710,
- model 64: decorated ones (with more than 2lines), without looking about the lenght, some exeplaries for 560-640,

then models of the scabbard decorations:
- model 65: simple band of bronze with traceries, 600-640 (+ some for 570-600 and 640-670),
- model 66: bronze band in a "L" form, decorated with little lines as if there was granat inside, some ones for 600-670,
- model 67: same as 66, but the part fited on the side of the cabbard is longer, and sometimes added with an rivet on the end of the scabbard. Bronze, 630-670;
- model 68: a simple edge decoration, un bronze, sometimes with rivets, lenght +/- 2cm. 560-640;
- model 69: round rivets with 3holes, 600-670,
- model 70: decorated round rivets, 630-670;
- model 71: same as 70,but with an ticker perimeter, 640-670,
- model 72: mooncressent rivets, sometimes with points-decoratio, 600-670.

Notice that the 2 early models are found with spathas in rich tombs, "common" saxes are for the 550-710 period concerning merovingian funral rites.
For the south of the Loire, and the Gothic-Burgundian aeras, even in frankish domination, i have not the references, but it seems that longer saxes, with two edged blade-heads, have been found for the late merovingian and pre-carolingian periods
.