Attached is a photo that I have been puzzling over for a while, and having just discovered this forum, thought you could help me. The image is from Trajan's Column - I took the pic recently in Bucharest where a museum has casts of every panel so you can see everything close up.
My question is - what are these machines? I am pretty sure they are not vertical against a wall, as they seem to be, but are horizontal on a lake. The circles are not wheels as they are fixed to the bars by U-bolts. There is a scythe-like blade on the left side of each left-hand circle. Each machine is made the same so there must be a purpose. Curiously they seem to be attached to a pipe-work with (pressure-relieving?) barrels at regular intervals. Were they moving back and forth to stop water-born attackers? That's a Dacian castle wall in the background - you can see diagrams of the panel and the ones to either side here: http://www.stoa.org/trajan/buildcartoon.cgi?18a
Any thoughts?
Lyle
Quote:Roman defence works, presumably the "ship's prow tortoises" as described by the Greek engineer Apollodorus of Damascus
I am not convinced. A name such as 'ship's prow tortoise' implies at least a superficial resemblance to a ship's prow or a tortoise. These devices resemble neither.
I find in this a description of a 'tortoise ram', which I assume to be the so-called 'ship's prow tortoise', but that is a ram mounted within a protective shed on wheels and bears no resemblance to the devices on the Column.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Eleatic Guest post=347384 Wrote:Roman defence works, presumably the "ship's prow tortoises" as described by the Greek engineer Apollodorus of Damascus
I am not convinced. A name such as 'ship's prow tortoise' implies at least a superficial resemblance to a ship's prow or a tortoise. These devices resemble neither.
I find in this a description of a 'tortoise ram', which I assume to be the so-called 'ship's prow tortoise', but that is a ram mounted within a protective shed on wheels and bears no resemblance to the devices on the Column.
I agree, that is describing a classic battering ram, the device ont he column looks nothing of the sort.
Otto Lendle devotes a chapter to the device, calling it "Schnabelschildkröte". It looks like a wedge-shaped cart, meant to protect the assault troops from stones and trees rolled downhill by the defenders. Otto Lendle - Texte und Untersuchungen zum technischen Bereich der antiken Poliorketik, 1983, ISBN 3-515-03674-1, pp. 133ff.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
Quote:I am not convinced. A name such as 'ship's prow tortoise' implies at least a superficial resemblance to a ship's prow or a tortoise. These devices resemble neither.
The identification of these devices has been a long-running debate. Long-running, that it, until the late Otto Lendle (in his 1983 book Texte und Untersuchungen zum technischen Bereich der antiken Poliorketik) brilliantly deduced that they are likely to be Apollodorus' "tortoise with the shape of a wedge" (140.9-141.4 Wescher = Whitehead 2010, 38-9). Lendle christened the device as the Schnabelschildkröte, which I rendered in English as the "ship's prow tortoise" (in my 2003 book Greek and Roman Siege Machinery, pp. 36, 45-6, and Plate E).
The online text that Stefan has linked to appears to be Lacoste's 1890 translation. You will find the relevant device in his Chapter 1, section 3 ("De la tortue en forme de coin").
Besides my summary treatment in 2003, there is now an English translation (D. Whitehead, Apollodorus Mechanicus, Siege-Matters, Historia Einzelschriften 216, Stuttgart 2010). Whitehead thinks my reconstruction (based on Lendle) to be "bigger and heavier overall than Apollodorus intended" (p. 80). Like all of these technical texts, the interpretation is never straightforward, and Henry Blyth (Greek Roman and Byzantine Studies 33, 1992, pp. 127-158 -- click on "Download this PDF file" -- the interface is not user-friendly!) believes that the wheels, at any rate, are a later interpolation into the existing text. See p. 152 for this device, which Blyth calls the "triangular deflector".
My only comment is that, forgive me if I am wrong, but is not this strange device suspended by the rail that is pierced by holes?
It doesn't appear to be connected. the rail like thing appears to me anyway to be in the background. However It does look like its connected to something hidden behind the soldier on the right. At first glance when I saw the pic I thought it looked like some sort of hydrolic system. What are the round barrel like things? I am also wondering why the scyth like things are only on the one side.
One way to get a guaranteed face-palm out of a Trajan's Column specialist is to mention that wretched thing.
You have to remember that the poor saps back in Rome sculpting it may have had no idea what it is they are supposed to be depicting, hence it looks like the bastard child of a washing machine and an autogyro. First person to mention 'field sketches' dies a truly horrible death involving a cucumber...
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Quote:The identification of these devices has been a long-running debate. Long-running, that it, until the late Otto Lendle (in his 1983 book Texte und Untersuchungen zum technischen Bereich der antiken Poliorketik) brilliantly deduced that they are likely to be Apollodorus' "tortoise with the shape of a wedge" (140.9-141.4 Wescher = Whitehead 2010, 38-9). Lendle christened the device as the Schnabelschildkröte, which I rendered in English as the "ship's prow tortoise" (in my 2003 book Greek and Roman Siege Machinery, pp. 36, 45-6, and Plate E).
I would, of course, need to see Lendle's detailed reasoning but, on what I have seen so far, I am not persuaded.
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Quote:I would, of course, need to see Lendle's detailed reasoning but, on what I have seen so far, I am not persuaded.
Of course you would. And if you're going solely by the content of this thread, I'm not surprised that you're not persuaded.
In defence of Lendle, it's worth noting that all other interpretations are laughable (Dacian unmanned, retractable scythed chariots, anyone?) while the Column's sculptor appears to have made an attempt to include all of the features mentioned in Apollodorus' description.
Having done an examination by zooming in on this picture I would like to make the following observations-
I believe the pierced 'rail' above the device is an integral part of it. There are several places where it does appear that there is a web-like attachment of what is either wires or fine ropes attaching the device to the rail. It almost looks like this is a man portable siege engine designed to be operated by a small team of infantry. It seems that a man pushes a 'plunger' type device at the right into the first 'barrel' which then presumably sets the first 'pendulum' device to start swinging, which in turn then pushes the next 'piston rod' into the next 'barrel' which sets the next 'pendulum' device to swing and so on until the end device is set swinging and then the beak part then strikes the wall.
I think this may have been a experimental siege engine designed to be able to be quickly mounted against a wall and to be operated by just a single man if necessary.
If had been a successful device I am sure it would have been mentioned more and shown in more monumental works.
