Button and Loop fasteners on Paenula Cloak

[PhilusEstilius]

Ivor.
Thank you for that information but having a job getting into registration with this ADS system can't get password to get into it so can't as yet download.

[Crispianus]

No need for a password or even membership just click "I agree" (to the terms and conditions) when downloading an article ;-)

[PhilusEstilius]

Ivor.
I have at last managed to get into it now and have got it all sorted thank you found the item you show and it is of interest.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Crispianus: Thanks, this is very close to the one i have used to hang my spatha.

[Graham Sumner]

Eleatic Guest wrote:

"Why did you - or rather the Romans - not fasten the button further to the right onto the cloak so that it could be better closed? It is not rocket science."

It is not possible to fasten the button any further over to the right unless you place it on the outside of the cloak. However it is possible as Brian said to shorten the size of the leather loops or perhaps move them closer. The idea was to replicate the two edges of the cloak shown in the monument. Otherwise to close up the gap the button side could have overlapped the other.

On the other hand as I have mentioned the cloak could be either laced up or sewn up part way down the front. Again as I have mentioned later versions came with a flap at the front.

As to Rocket science, they had back packs in early Celtic times but the Romans with all their skill at leather work and numerous types of leather bag or satchel never made a military back pack. Equally their clothes presses look almost identical to the printing press and yet they never made that tiny leap to produce block printing!

Graham.

[Crispvs]

Graham,

Did you have any thoughts on the idea (blue sky thinking, admittedly) I suggested?

Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Crispus

If your method replicates what is seen in the sculpture then until any archaeological evidence appears to the contrary it is as valid as any other reconstruction.

Graham.

[A_Volpe]

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that the Romans had "false" buttons like we see in 17th-19th century clothing/uniforms?

[Eleatic Guest]

As to Rocket science, they had back packs in early Celtic times but the Romans with all their skill at leather work and numerous types of leather bag or satchel never made a military back pack. Equally their clothes presses look almost identical to the printing press and yet they never made that tiny leap to produce block printing!

Block printing is done without any kind of mechanical press, but point taken.

Celtic military back packs...sounds interesting...could you point me to any literature?

[PhilusEstilius]

Graham.
Where you mention that the button cannot be moved without it being sewn on the outside this is not correct for the triangular of circular bracket of the button could go through a very small vertical slot cut in the material then the button could be moved some 5 mm away from the edge and then the bracket piece sewn on the inside, and with the loops made smaller for a very tight fit over the button itself there is now an overlap that closes the garment completely.
Where Renatus also mentioned as indeed I have in the past can there have been small gaps in the stitching of the piping edge of the garment worn by the Camomile street soldier that help to create a type of button hole for the two upper buttons to go through, this is I suppose where both myself and Mike Bishop tend to consider if the Romans really did have the button hole.

[Crispvs]

"for the triangular of circular bracket of the button could go through a very small vertical slot cut in the material"

Of course, this would also allow for what I suggested to be possible, especially if the toggle on the other part of the cloak had a very short 'shank' of thread, meaning it could easily be located and pushed into position, either by feel from the outside or by reaching up to it on the inside.

As the sewn-up front of my own paenula tore open during a very windy training session at the weekend (after seventeen years of good service, mind you), I may have a go at testing the idea and seeing how workable it is. The small toggle illustrated a page or two back in this thread might be an ideal candidate for such a role I think.
I will report back here once I have tried it out, although that might be a few weeks away, as I have a funeral to sort out in the immediate future and so will be cutting back on making and experimenting with kit for a while.

Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Brian

Where you mention that the button cannot be moved without it being sewn on the outside this is not correct for the triangular of circular bracket of the button could go through a very small vertical slot cut in the material then the button could be moved some 5 mm away from the edge and then the bracket piece sewn on the inside

Well, thats rather an assumption that there were slots cut in the garment, whereas I was under the assumption there were no cuts. Equally we are both under the assumption that this particular sculpture shows an authentic method!

Assuming it is, then my reconstruction does not replicate exactly what is shown. However in that case I prefer your earlier suggestion that the leather could be moved and have a smaller loop rather than resort to cuts.

Graham.

[PhilusEstilius]

Graham.
I think that you must agree that with the weave of some materials it would not take a large slit in the material for the base of these fastener brackets to be pushed through, in fact on most of the smaller button types the base of the triangle is at times around 4 to 5 mm and even smaller with the types that have a circular stitching loop to them.
Then when fitted on the inside of the garment they may well have been sewn all the way around the triangle bracket that makes the button very securely fitted to the inside of the garment with even very little if no hole seen at all, then with shorter thongs or loops to go tight over the button there could even be an overlap at the edges of the garment that would make it even more tidy.

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Brian.

I consulted John Peter Wild on this topic. He agrees with you and Mike that buttons would be much better at fastening the Camomile type cloak together but there is no evidence yet for button holes.

He is also doubtful now that the button and loop fasteners were used for clothing at all. He agrees that lacing and stitching were other likely methods of closing paenula cloaks, as long as they are not closed too far down the garment to allow the soldier to throw the wings up onto his shoulders.

Also to clarify, the loop is the metal attachment to the 'button' and not the loop of thong, although in this case that now seems immaterial!

I hope this helps.

Graham.

[PhilusEstilius]

Graham.
I have to disagree that the loop is part of the fastener for the under part or right angled piece bracket of the button is the part that goes through the material and would have been stitched to the inside with the button showing at the front of the garment where a loop or thong goes over the button to secure the closing of the garment.
I would also have to disagree with the idea put forward that the garment was stitched together at the top end in all cases may not be correct for what do we have on the garment of the Camomile Street soldier other than two buttons at the top then below what appear to have been maybe wooden toggles, these buttons would have remained fastened and as also the toggles then when he wanted to throw the garment back over the shoulder he would undo the toggles.