Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Kalkriese and the Clades Variana
#16
Hi All,<br>
<br>
Could I have some comments from the experts on the info from this site: www.geschichte.uni-osnabr...start.html ? Especially the maps at www.geschichte.uni-osnabr...2/2a4.html and<br>
www.geschichte.uni-osnabr...tellen.jpg<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Robert Vermaat<br>
[email protected] <br>
<br>
Vortigern Studies<br>
www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/ <br>
Wansdyke Project 21<br>
www.wansdyke21.org.uk/ <br>
Robert's Arthurian Collection<br>
www.geocities.com/vortige...grarth.htm <br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/uvortigernstudies.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/24/02 2:03:24 pm<br></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#17
Sorry guys, but I'm still beating that dead mule. It finally occcured to me why "purposely" bury the mule at all, after all it is in the middle of nowhere, and who cares? If the Romans dug a mass grave for the human bones, it made sense the throw the nearby animal bones over them for that much more protection against scavangers. But why bury the "lone" mule at the embankment at all? Maybe they didn't purposely bury it. Maybe it was buried inadvertently long after the battle when the Romans came back! Maybe this was when the turf and chalk wall was made, when Germanicus' army returned and the burials were conducted. It wouldn't surprise me if Germanicus' army took more precautions that Varus, and building a defensive position to overlook the grave details might have been a sensible thing.<br>
<br>
What exactly are these "chalk blocks" anyway? It has never been adequately explained what they are and where they came from. Because of the swampy nature of the region, I could imagine the Romans bringing some building materials with them to make causeways,etc, and perhaps because this is a "lightweight" building material, there might have been some practicality to hauling it around. If this material turns out NOT to be from the immediate region, I can certainly imagine the Romans having a greater logistical ability than the Germans for carrying it with them.<br>
<br>
The point I was trying to make about there still being a "main battle area" to be found, is that the a battle involving tens of thousands of men, and most probably dying on the Roman side, is that it would go on "for miles", and leave far more than the sparse collection from Kalkreise. To say it would "not be preserved" in other places is a "cop out". Yes, maybe organic materials, and even ferrous objects could be less preserved in the region around Kalkreise, but the bulk of the military equipment finds are cupric alloy, and even in the worst natural conditions in the world, they would still be relatively intact. If a large portion of the "Varus running battle" took place in the mashlands, it could explain why so little has been found in the elevated, forested areas around Kalkreise. However, if the "battle" was largely fought in the marshes, then there would have to be copious amounts of Roman military equipment still there, as it never could have been adequately salvaged by the Germans, who with their tendencey for "water" deposits/sacrifices, may have been quite content to leave it there anyway. I am sure by this time, the Kalkreise achaeologists would have used proton magnatometers/ground penetrating radar to determine if any Roman military equipment lay in the former mashes around Kalkreise. This equipment is capable of detecting metallic objects at enormous depths, and if they have searched and found nothing, then Kalkreise simply cannot be the "last stand of the Varus legions" for there would be a continuous trail of "battle artifacts" leading to where the first attack took place, and all along the line, evidence of tens of thousands of men fighting, not a couple hundred as the actual artifacts, (and the new National Geo painting) indicate. Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Reply
#18
What are we talking about? Dan, when I read through your posting you are more or less talking about that battle as one big clash between three Roman legions and masses of Germanic warriors. Both forces in more or less good order, just as described in the officers manual.<br>
<br>
On the other hand Tim and Antoninus Lucretius are talking about series of minor battles and skirmishes of with Kalkriese was only one. Considering the geography of that area 2000 years ago, I think they got a point.<br>
<br>
I would agree with Dan about that dead mule, if we were talking about three complete legions in marching order. But I think we are talking about the remains of these legions. Tired men after two days of attacks, some of them maybe wounded, at least some of them certainly freighted and all trying to make it to friendly territory.<br>
<br>
Helge<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
If you run away from an archer...
Reply
#19
Just a quick note as I'm rushing to get to work.<br>
<br>
Dan wrote:<br>
<i><br>
What exactly are these "chalk blocks" anyway? It has never been adequately explained what they are and where they came from. Because of the swampy nature of the region, I could imagine the Romans bringing some building materials with them to make causeways,etc, and perhaps because this is a "lightweight" building material, there might have been some practicality to hauling it around. If this material turns out NOT to be from the immediate region, I can certainly imagine the Romans having a greater logistical ability than the Germans for carrying it with them.<br>
</i><br>
<br>
Umm Dan - 'Kalkriese Berg' means '<b> Chalk</b> Giant Hill'. Guess why.<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>

</p><i></i>
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg

HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
Reply
#20
Yes, tim, I am aware of that, but "where" were they quarried from on the mountain?, and how? When the average German (according to Tacitus) was lucky if he had a lance with an iron head, these "blocks" sound more like a real engineering operation in which specialized tools would be required. Do you really imagine barbarians doing this?<br>
<br>
Helge, I never imagined it as "a parade ground battle", but if this was the Varus battle, there would be a "continuous" trail of Kalkreise sites, beginining from the first German attack. But instead there is literally nothing else but Kalkreise itself. There is no reason whatsoever why the "rest" of the trail of artifacts couldn't be traced if this was really part of the Varus army in retreat. Cupric alloy Roman military objects cannot simply disintigrate. The retreat line could be traced if the Varus army really went to Kalkreise. This is the main reason Kalkreise has to be questioned. The artifact evidence suggests is was an isolated incident. Add the pottery, furniture traces, nails, etc, and general paucity of artifacts, and you have a small camp overrun by Germans during the Varus period. If thousands of artifacts more are found in the surrounding marshes I would change my view, but I think they have already looked without success. And like I said, if many Romans died in the marshes there would have to be major finds out there ,like helmets, mail shirts, etc. as the Germans could not have recovered them once lost under the mud. I don't understand why you guys can't "get it". Do you have any concept how many people at least 20,000 is, and despite INTENSIVE searching for 20 square kilometers around Kalkreise there is virtually no trace of them? Even if we imagine a lot of scavengers drug away a lot of bodies, I cannot imagine more than a 100 Romans dying at Kalkriese, much like the National Gerographic painting. Dan. <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#21
...And mules and luxury litters.<br>
I read too fast and I hadn't noticed the fascinating detail about the muffled bell. That definitely speaks of someone trying to sneak out.<br>
As for the litter (if there really was one) : wasn't Varus wounded?<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Reply


Forum Jump: