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Thiudareiks Flavius · 02-24-2004, 08:10 PM

Dan revealed unto me: 
 
Quote:<hr>Actually, Tim, we all had this little bet going, on how long your expected and indignent response to my "Tolkien baiting" would be<hr> 
 
<heavy sarcasm>Gosh! Really??!! How surprising! Wow - you really got me.</heavy sarcasm> 
 
When's the new edition of your book coming out Dan? I assume it is finished, since you definitely have too much time on your hands. 
 
PS "Indignent"? My mild response was neither "indignent" nor indignant. Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions. 
 
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02-24-2004, 11:03 PM

I don't want to spoil the books for you, Tim, but there's another guy, who (independently from me) came to the same conclusion about the Orcs (much more profound than me actually): 
www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/loc...ol39/39.55 
--------------- 
 
<img src="http://home.nexgo.de/berzelmayr/hadrian.gif"/> Est vita misero longa, felici brevis.

**Robert Vermaat** · 02-26-2004, 12:07 AM

Dan, 
You are completely mistaken about Tolkien and LotR. It is so obvious that Tolkien was not interested in old history or ethnicity, he was a green environmentalist! 
 
All that D&D stuff was just a guise to sell the book. Forget all the battles, forget all those heroes vs. barbarians, forget all that nordic nonsense. 
 
The Ents, guardings of nature, the green Shire, which in the climax of the book sees the real battle against pollution and industrialisation (which Peter Jackson was very wrong to leave out ), the forests as heavens for the nature-tending Elfs and for all who seek shelter, etc., etc. Even those Hobbits are clearly unresponcible, fun-loving, pot-smoking hippies! 
 
I mean, it is obvious. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Crispvs · 02-26-2004, 12:22 AM

Dan, 
 
Despite the seemingly interminable length of some of your recent postings on this thread, you seem always to be harping on about a single point: that Tolkein's work, and in particular 'The Lord of the Rings' was nothing more than a thinly disguised attempt to elevate the warriors of Ariovistus and Arminius into the saviours of the world, to be admired by all. If this is the case could you answer a few small points of my own? 
 
1. Hobbits do not resemble ancient Germans in the slightest. Rather, they are depicted as idealised eighteenth or early nineteenth century rustics, of a type not uncommon in Thomas Hardy's works. As hobbits are central characters in both 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings' how do they help to elevate Ariovistus and co into cultured savours of the universe? 
 
2. The Rohirrim (or Riders of Rohan) are the most 'Germanic' of the peoples Tolkein describes, but (and I am not referring in any way to the recent films here) they are hardly 'Germans' of the type Tacitus describes. They are in fact a formerly nomadic warrior nation (who are perhaps closer in some ways to the Huns than Anglo-Saxons) who has been given territory to occupy and defend by the rulers of Gondor, in order to bolster the defence of their northern border, in a way analagous with the late Roman practice of using German tribes as foederati in areas where Rome's power was weak. In what way does an analogy of late Rome glorify your mud hut and pointy stick brigade? 
 
3. You say that the people of Middle Earth speak a Germanic language. Does that extend to those peoples who are represented as speaking Quendi, Khazak or Black Speech? 
 
4. Throughout 'The Lord of the Rings' the reader is told that most of the peoples of the regions of Eriador and Gondor speak 'Westron', which is a slightly debased form of the language of Numenor. Tolkein states in the appendices to 'The Lord of the Rings' that the Westron language has been expressed as English in the book for the purpose of avoiding the need to translate most of the speech of the characters. What bearing does this have on your veiw that Tolkein's characters speak a Germanic language? 
 
5. The peoples of Middle Earth are not the ancient peoples of European history. They are fictional peoples who have been both consciously and unconsciously inspired by historical peoples. This surly is common to all fictional peoples in novels and in fact all characters in novels, plays, films or television programmes. How could it be otherwise? If 'The Lord of the Rings' is a perfidious attack on the memory of the Roman Empire because it has people who resemble in part ancient Germans, then what are Mervyn Peake's 'Gormengast' and Frank Herbert's 'Dune'? 
 
6. You call 'The Lord of the Rings' a fairytale. In one sense this is true. It does depict a faerie world (ie: a world as real and fully developed as ours but separate from it) and so could be descibed as a work of fairie. However by fairytale I suspect you are using the term in its 'children's bedtime story' sense. This it is not! Whether you enjoy the book or not, it is conscously an epic, in the ancient sense of the term, and in that respect has much in common with the work of Homer, Apollonias Rhodias, Virgil and Lucan. It is devided into 'books' like its epic predecessors; it involves larger than life characters; the characters travel a great distance and endure hardships; the characters meet strange and unexpected peoples along their journey; and the characters have an important mission to accomplish. In fact the only defining characteristic of epic that it lacks is that it is not written in hexameter (but then we today don't write in the iambic pentameter that Shakespeare wrote in). If I am right in this respect, is your indiscriminate use of the word 'fairytale' appropriate? 
 
I look forward to your response. 
 
Crispvs Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 2/26/04 1:29 am

Thiudareiks Flavius · 02-26-2004, 06:31 AM

Crispvs wrote: 
 
Quote:<hr>Despite the seemingly interminable length of some of your recent postings on this thread, you seem always to be harping on about a single point: that Tolkein's work, and in particular 'The Lord of the Rings' was nothing more than a thinly disguised attempt to elevate the warriors of Ariovistus and Arminius into the saviours of the world, to be admired by all.<hr> 
 
The reason his "theory" makes so little sense is that he doesn't actually believe it himself. His silly post is his second attempt at provoking me - I ignored the first one completely (if it had neon signs all over it saying "Troll Bait for Tim O'Neill" it couldn't have been more obvious). This one, OTOH, has at least stimulated some genuinely interesting posts, especially those by Hadrianus. 
 
Originally I was puzzled as to why he chose "Germanics" and "Tolkien" as his bait. It's well known that I'm into the Germanics, but why Tolkien? I haven't read The Lord of the Rings in 15 years. Then it occured to me that I also contribute to an EzBoard forum devoted to the Peter Jackson movies, though rarely on the movies themselves or on Tolkien - mainly on the Iraq War. 
 
Now if Dan really wants to lay out some troll bait he can always start a thread on Iraq. 
 
Why is this strange guy stalking me across the internet and posting repeatedly in a rather creepy attempt to get me to respond? 
 
Now, that is a mystery ... Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions. 
 
Come to my [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/member/Gunthigg/Thiudareiks" target="top]Stathigg[/url] in [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/City/23413" target="top]Germania[/url] at the [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/" target="top]Ancient Worlds[/url] community.

Daniel S Peterson · 02-26-2004, 07:36 PM

Robert, 
Yes I think there is a deal of truth to the "enviromental angle" of Tolkien. This may be another reason he loved the ancient Germans so much -- tree worshippers. It has also been said Tolkien would have likely been swept under the rug and forgotten in the late fifties, had it not been for the "pot smoking hippies" of the sixties who discovered it and thought it was so insanely counter culture that they adopted it as their own. They then, became the teachers who forced this stuff down the throats on the next generations as 'great literature'. 
In this respect Tolkien's fables are much like modern art, judged at face value by the average man, it is often dismissed as so much nonsense, much as much of what we call modern art. In both cases it takes an 'expert critic' to tell people the fairy tale or the big paint spot are the 'works of genius'. 
 
Crispus, 
As Tim pointed out, great literary minds have identified Tolkien's works as "Nazi Posh", which I agree is somewhat unfair, but clearly indicates many, many people believed he was a blatant Germanophile, (to such length that he strove to have all latin purged from the English language.) Even the most sympathetic biographers admit he did poorly in the classics and his true love was the German languages and their lore. Had it not been for the influennce of Beowulf, it is unlikely Tolkien would have ever written anything resembling fantasy. Recall how distressed he became because the evil Nazis were embracing HIS Nordic heroes. But the glories of his supermen were not his only love, for the hobbits clearly suggest English country characters, and we see these types again in what I think is his best work (because he has left middle earth, and does not take his nonsense so seriously in it), Farmer Giles and the other country folk of that tale. Of course, those devotees who have literally made LOTR their 'religion' seem to hate this story the most, because even the Master did not take it seriously, but nearly a satire of the others, much like the Star Wars nuts couldn't tolerate the comic relief antics of Jar Jar that blasphemed their 'religion'. Remember too, that WWII and its Nazi horrors were still in recent memory when LOTR appeared. It was sensible that he 'water down' his Germanic mania a bit, with lovable British country characters in the Hobbits, though the rampant nordism was still obvious to many. 
But yes, I believe these are mere 'fairy tales' as in Children's stories. Tolkien admitted as much regarding the Hobbit, though it has been transformed into holy writ now by the fanatics. In both stories the 'happy endings' are achieved in such simplistic 'cop out' ways, they can only be satisfying and meaningful for small children or the most ignorant medieval peasant. The victory over Smaug was achieved only because of a 'talking bird' that happened to be there, the victory over Sauron, because this evil mastermind, with his unlimited resources in manpower (not to mention orcpower), did not leave even a handful of walking wounded to guard the one place in all of Middle Earth in which he was vulnerable. These have got to be two of the lamest and most simplistic endings of any stories, let alone so called "epics". I found it interesting that the Indians (I go there frenquently to make armor) were not very impressed with these books or films. But the reason is obvious, they are judging the stories at "face value" rather than with preconceived notions that the writer was a genius, as English and American kids in their formative years have been, bombarded with praise by ex hippy teachers and professors who read Tolkien while high on drugs which evidently made the stories seem better than they really were. 
 
Hadrianus, get over it. Tolkien found the word "Orc" (coincidentally also a fantasy monster) in the Medieval stories that were his passion. It's no biggie, he took most of his other characters from those stories too. (Or would you believe he also invented dwarves, elves, trolls and dragons?) Be thrilled that he at least added "hobbits" to the world of fantasy characters (not that anyone else dare use them for fear of copyright infringements). 
 
Tim, 
No, the post wasn't just for you, but the conjecture you couldn't resist adding a long trirade was real enough, as you have on every previous occasion when those you idolize are being impugn on RAT, (and not necesarily just by me.) Upon seeing this film I was genuinely disappointed with its cramming of so many fantastic special effects related to ancient warfare, which will trivialize all future 'historical' ancient films, (including yours, if it ever comes to pass). But it is always amusing to read your occasional posts of untethered Germannic hero worship on RAT, just as it is sometimes visiting your site to read the great wisdom of your devotees. I fondly remember the post about how it would be impossible to make your film in the United States, because no mongrel American has the proper shaped head to depict the racially perfect craniums of the master race. Did Dr. Mengele flee to South America as many imagine, or was it Australia? 
 
Dan

Chariovalda · 02-26-2004, 08:39 PM

Of course, people like us, who re-enact and study genuine civilised genocidal imperialists, are the right and proper ones to go bananas about the "virulent racism" inherent in Tolkien's work. I mean, the man is, directly or indirectly, responsible for the slaughter and oppression of...of...of...er, well, blast it! 
 
 
Let's get back to re-enacting genociding those "barbarian" Carthaginians, Celts, Germans and those darn Aramaic-speaking monotheists from Palestine... 
 
Chariovalda, 
Semi-civilised, semi-barbarian genocidal imperialist and proud of it! 
Roma Victrix! Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chariovalda>Chariovalda</A> at: 2/26/04 9:43 pm

Thiudareiks Flavius · 02-27-2004, 01:16 AM

No, no, no Chariovalda - the Roman Empire was the pinnacle of wonderfulness in all respects and has never been romanticised by misguided and unsavory types (Mussolini and his pals were just misunderstood). 
 
I've been inspired by Dan's hilarious jolliness (his posts are jokes you see, not personal attacks, as indicated by his use of the emoticon) to create a coat of arms for Tolkien fans, students of the early Germanics, readers of Beowulf and other racists and Nazis. 
 
It would feature a "Germanophile Rampant", dressed in a caveman's bear-skin, weilding a crude wooden club, carrying a shield marked with a swastika and wearing a Kaiser Wilhelm-style spiked helmet set with large Wagnerian horns. He will be standing over a supine Roman dragon against the background of burning temples and scrolls, while Hitler, philologists, hippies, pot-heads and Tolkien nerds fawn at his (filthy) feet. 
 
I'll make up a prototype and award it to the winner of the competition below: 
 
Out-Dan Dan! 
 
Dan has been proving his skills as a fantasy writer lately, creating some hilarious caricatures of Tolkien and early Germanic history and culture. Now here's the chance for RAT members to join in the fun - your opportunity to out-Dan Dan. 
 
All you have to do is write a Dan-style paraody of Roman history and culture, using the same style of erroneous-but-almost-plausible-sounding caricature he's been employing in his recent mirthsome posts. 
 
The lucky winner will be awarded their own "Germanophile Rampant" coat of arms as well as the warm admiration of all those who appreciate good natured drollery. 
 
There's certainly a lot of material to work with - transvestite Emperors, civilian massacres, sickening violence in the arenas, mass crucifixions, the fact they stole all their ideas from the Greeks and Etruscans, their technological stagnation, political oppression, vile tortures - the list goes on and on. 
 
So get writing, and give Dan's jolly posts a run for their money. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
etc Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project 
 
Help create the film of Publius Quinctilius Varus' lost legions. 
 
Come to my [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/member/Gunthigg/Thiudareiks" target="top]Stathigg[/url] in [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/City/23413" target="top]Germania[/url] at the [url=http://www.ancientworlds.net/" target="top]Ancient Worlds[/url] community.

**Robert Vermaat** · 02-27-2004, 08:37 AM

Tim, 
I already tried to, with my post on the 'green' Tolkien. 
It did not work, he took me seriously.. 
 
I'm afraid it will take more than my rudimentary literate skill to achieve that. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Daniel S Peterson · 02-27-2004, 09:32 PM

Tim, 
A great idea and sure to generate interesting debates. However, I fear that the majority of RAT members will be disinclined to insult/satirize Roman culture and military systems (after all this is ROMAN Army Talk. Therefore, with Jenny's consent, I propose we create another offshoot of RAT (like Greek Army Talk), and christen it "Germannic Barbarian Horde Talk" (the word "army" being somewhat incongruous with a bunch of hairy naked guys with clubs.) Naturally, you should be the "moderator" 
 
I think we should incorporate some of your ideas too. For example, like the Roman helmet icon on RAT , GBHT could have that prussian spike helmet-Wagnerian horned helmet hybrid you suggested. If you need a German spiked helmet photo for an Icon, I have it on good authority (seriously), that your "Idol" , Peter Jackson has a whole house full of them (now why am I not surprised by this?) 
 
RAT enthusiasts will also finally have a place where they can post witty remarks on the anniversaries of great German defeats at the hands of the Romans, you know, exactly what you do all the time on RAT glorifying German victories over the Romans! 
 
Dan

03-01-2004, 08:24 AM

A CLEAN SWEEP AT THE OSCARS???? 
 
WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC, WELL DESERVED!!! 
 
BLOODY BRILLIANT AND ABOUT TIME!!!! 
 
LET JOY AND HAPPINESS BE UNBOUNDED!!!!! 
 
LET BELLS RING OUT ON THIS HAPPY, HAPPY DAY!!! 
 
WELL DONE PETER JACKSON, GO, GO, GO!!!!!! 
 
WELL DONE EVERYONE INVOLVED WITH LoTR !!!!!! 
 
 
I understand that RoTK ties with Titanic and Ben Hur (YAH, BOO, PESKY ROMANS! ) for 11 Oscars, but that they didn't win every category that they were nominated for. 
 
I think I'm going to cry! 
 
*ahem* my apologies for this unseemly outburst in such an erudite and learned company, but I'm just a naked, hairy barbarian............ 
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Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=valamber>Valamber</A> at: 3/1/04 9:26 am

03-01-2004, 10:51 AM

this ultimately proves that Hollywood is full of Nordic Supremawhatevers (after all, most of them have German names) --------------- 
 
<img src="http://home.nexgo.de/berzelmayr/hadrian.gif"/> Est vita misero longa, felici brevis.

aitor iriarte · 03-01-2004, 12:32 PM

Nassty Barbarians, we hate them forever, my Precious!

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-01-2004, 02:14 PM

Yeah, did you not notice which movie received the Oscar for 'best non-English production'? It was the Canadian (i.e. nordic! ) picture titled "The Barbarian Invasions"!!! 
 
QED 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/2/04 1:42 am

Chariovalda · 03-01-2004, 04:05 PM

Jackson, Jackson, ueber alles! Ueber alles in Hollywood! 
 
 
 
 
Chariovalda 
 
P.S. in view of Dan's allegations, should we nickname Peter Jackson perhaps "Pickelhaube Pete"?

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